"It's like Lenin said, you look for the person who benefits"

[Abzu]

Explain it to the Mid-West and see how many are on board and how many blast Bruce Springsteen and tell you to get the fuck outta town.



I like the idea of RBE, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it will or could gain the mass acceptance it would need.

[Redd]

It won't be an instant transition. That's not realistic in the least. People need to start learning about a RBE, they need to turn off their televisions and put down their magazines and begin to reset their values. A RBE needs to be taught in schools.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm-Flailing Tube Man]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the sounds of it, the RBE requires some sort of mediator/arbiter. Whether it be by mob rule, autocratic, or otherwise, some entity holds a degree of hierarchical power.



Seriously; distribution center? Am I the only one that got the creeps reading that? Sounds an awful lot like the bread-lines of yore.

[Holocaust]

I am the walrus?

[jawn galliano]

[quote name="abzu"]
[quote name="Redd"]Just because someone has a pre-existing condition doesn't mean he or she will go and commit a crime. Conditioning is the trigger. For example, say someone is genetic predisposed to violence. Doesn't mean the person will go and commit a crime if s/he was raised by a caring family and is conditioned to believe violence is wrong, yet if you abuse a child with that pre-existing condition, s/he may become a serial killer.



In a RBE people would go to work to help each other. The majority of today's jobs are completely obsolete. Machines and take over laborious, monotonous jobs, leaving humans free to help each other and enlighten themselves. Money is a horrible incentive.



<!-- m -->http://www.thevenusproject.com/<!-- m --> Explains the RBE better than I can. If you're interested you ought to look into it.[/quote]



I'm not a psychologist, so I'm not going to refute you and say that conditioning will do nothing; but I think it is naive to think a utopian quality of life will eliminate crime altogether. I will read the link before commenting further on the economic system you're referring to.



I like this conversation. I will return to it later tonight and hope you are online to participate. Additionally, I would like to see what Imran thinks about the URL.[/quote]



Conditioning of course can have an impact, but to say that it is the sole 'trigger' is an absurd oversimplification. It only works under the assumptions of radical behaviorism in the tradition of Skinner and Watson and all, which has been pretty well-refuted as it ignores far too many established and relevant variables.



As for resource-based economics, there is absolutely no reason to think it will end any differently than the systems that have been tried throughout history. It's exchanging one arbitrary currency system for another, and ultimately you're going to have cost/value dictated by scarcity. Since all resources are finite, scarcity cannot be eliminated. As catacat mentioned, there has to be some controlling mechanism, which means it's prone to all the gaming and manipulation and other pitfalls involved in the systems that have been implemented throughout history.

[TamPron]

SHUT THE FUCK UP DONNY

[jawn galliano]

Taken from the Venus Project's associated website, the Zeitgeist Movement:

The bottom line is that it is environmental conditioning that really affects 99% of our actions, and all diligent behavior studies have proven this time and time again.

This statement is the foundation for their position on psychology, and it is of course, ridiculous.



Behaviorism's strengths lie in a wealth of quantifiable, observable data, and they do indeed tend to have very strong experimental designs. What this fails to take into account, however, is one of the greatest weaknesses: nonrepresentative research context. The vast majority of conditioning studies are animal studies -- now, we have learned a tremendous amount about conditioning and learning processes from these studies, there is no denying this. The problem is, not all laboratory findings can necessarily be generalized to all animals, or even to the species being studied -- you have purpose-bred lines of animals, raised in highly controlled environments, which ignores the genetic and environmental diversity of wild specimens.



Really though, the hugest flaw in their position is generalizing the results of an entire field of study to explain human behavior in such a simplistic manner. No citation of studies is provided, or even a reference to some kind of consensus amongst the various research disciplines on the matter, and for good reason: there is no consensus which states behavioral conditioning explains '99% of our actions'. There are so many cognitive and biological variables involved, it's positively absurd to reduce the sum of all interpersonal/social actions to conditioning processes. You could sleep through a high school psychology course and figure that much out.



It may be more parsimonious to defer to conditioning as the sole determinant of human actions, but that doesn't make it correct or useful.

[Redd]

I don't think you quite understand the Venus Project, Mortimer.

[jawn galliano]

I understand it well enough for the context of this discussion, your issue is that I don't agree with the assumptions of the project.



If their approach to solving the social problems of modern civilization is to invoke psychology to lend themselves credibility, and then turn around and essentially say 'lol, conditioning', there is little else that needs to be understood. This position is based on how they believe things are, not on the actual body of available research, or on reality. Like any other facet of this proposed utopian society, it makes tremendous leaps in reasoning to draw conclusions that support their ideology, rather than their ideals following from actual conclusions. If you're going to make an argument rooted in scientific findings, you can't just throw away the parts you don't like.

[Redd]

Please re-read my posts because you really have failed to understand TVP. Please re-read TVP site as well, including the FAQ.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Chaohinon"]Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the sounds of it, the RBE requires some sort of mediator/arbiter. Whether it be by mob rule, autocratic, or otherwise, some entity holds a degree of hierarchical power.



Seriously; distribution center? Am I the only one that got the creeps reading that? Sounds an awful lot like the bread-lines of yore.[/quote]





Distribution center can be used to describe your local grocery store or farmer's market. It is a chilling and sterile term, but taken literally can mean any of the other things we do not get chills from.

[Redd]

[quote name="Chaohinon"]Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the sounds of it, the RBE requires some sort of mediator/arbiter. Whether it be by mob rule, autocratic, or otherwise, some entity holds a degree of hierarchical power.



Seriously; distribution center? Am I the only one that got the creeps reading that? Sounds an awful lot like the bread-lines of yore.[/quote]



Sorry for missing your post, I must've glazed over it. Anyway; Abzu's got it right. Also, machines will take care of intelligently managing Earth's resources. Having a particular group in power will not be acceptable in this society. Freedom for all, power for none.

[jawn galliano]

Please re-read my posts because you really have failed to understand TVP. Please re-read TVP site as well, including the FAQ.

careful now, you're channeling mcberko. stop riding his dick for a moment and try actually thinking.



a smart person should have great difficulty reading through the proposals and FAQ's on that site, because at every sentence, there are major practical issues which they seem to simply ignore because that is the only way to make their system sound workable. the simple fact is, the venus project is nothing more than ideological fantasy, a utopia which has no chance of success on a large scale.



just for fun, let's pull a quote about the resource-based economy, one of the cornerstones of the venus project:

A: If all the money in the world were destroyed, as long as we have sufficient arable land, the factories, the necessary resources, and technical personnel, we could build anything and even supply an abundance.

this is positively ridiculous! for this statement to be true, it would require that all resources are renewable, that they can be cultivated on sufficient arable land. good luck building computer equipment for your technocratic society with all that farm-grown silicon and conductive material!

Sorry for missing your post, I must've glazed over it. Anyway; Abzu's got it right. Also, machines will take care of intelligently managing Earth's resources. Having a particular group in power will not be acceptable in this society. Freedom for all, power for none.

surely, you must be joking. no rational human could possibly say this with a straight face. who programs the machines? who defines the standards of intelligent resource management? someone will ALWAYS have power. again, this is more waving-away of serious practical issues, 'lol, machines do it'.

[Redd]

Instead of throwing out insults, let's attempt to be civil, mmkay? And will you please read through my posts, in particular the one regarding this "utopia" idea you're so stuck on?

Poor word choice on Fresco's part. What he should've said was in addition to building anything we need, we can produce anything (including food) we need as well.

You're right that someone has to program machines initially and as long as they are programmed by someone who cares about helping humanity, I really fail to see the problem. Machines do what they are programmed do to. They can't feel and have no desire for power. Why should a human be allowed to decide how to manage the planet's resources?



Edit: I don't feel you're open to this idea at all. It's good that you have reasons to oppose it and aren't blindly accepting everything I say, but you still need to say to yourself "Is this possible? How is this possible?" and just read, take in information, and decide for yourself without any bias.

[jawn galliano]

people have differing ideas on how to best benefit humanity. machines are proxy actors for the people that program them. by surrendering distribution to large-scale automated processes, you are surrendering control of all resources to the programmers, who then hold... what's that word i'm looking for? oh, right POWER.



i am stuck on the utopia argument because that is exactly what this is. it is an ideal society, which requires so many outlandish assumptions that it could never feasibly work to achieve what its adherents seem to think it will.



stop confusing openness to ideas with readily accepting them. being open to an idea means giving it consideration, which i have done, and after considering their proposals i have concluded that they are patently absurd.

[Redd]

The machines will constantly be receiving new information and adjust themselves accordingly, without human intervention. Humans will only initially program them.

I've already addressed the subject of "utopia" but if you insist on going on about it, be my guest.

If you really were open-minded, instead of attacking me and trying to make me appear lower than yourself, wouldn't you instead be attempting to understand me? Wouldn't you be asking me questions instead of flat-out saying it's not possible?

[jawn galliano]

of course! the answer is so simple! MAGIC MACHINES! magic machines, which are capable of programming themselves, according to heuristics and algorithms put in place initially by... oh.



stop making this out like a couple of personal jabs for the sake of amusement are the substance of my argument. openness and making fun of ridiculous ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[Redd]

I'm going to stop now. I've made my point.

[jawn galliano]

fair enough, because if you fail to grasp the problems with ceding control to a mechanism which is inherently, inescapably determined by human action, i'm not sure what else to tell you.

[Redd]

It's not possible to understand TVP in a day or two. Suit yourself.

[jawn galliano]

it's easy enough to see that the whole obviously relies on a number of functional components to achieve its fundamental desired ends, and a cursory examination of any one of those components readily reveals that they are not workable. feel free to spend as much time as you want doing the necessary mental gymnastics to convince yourself that it can be done, but in truth, your time would be better spent on going to church or reading fantasy novels.



i'll be over here in reality, feel free to say hello if you ever decide to drop by!

[Redd]

The current state of the world is not acceptable to me, nor should it be for anyone else.

[jawn galliano]

that's nice, notice that nobody is arguing otherwise. try focusing that energy toward some practical solutions (e.g., things that can actually happen)

[Redd]

Glad the discussion made you think.

[Haunty]

Stormy's a pretty wise duder. :mmm:





It seems to me that this whole topic has become a stale pissing contest between pragmatists and ideologists. As a pragmatist, I fail to see anything particularly worthy of discussion. Most of what I'm hearing seems to be nothing but fantasy, non-solutions, models of an "ideal society." While yes, I'd agree that man seems to be psychologically and physiologically healthiest in a sort of communal system, where everyone works for the good of the group, it's beyond unrealistic to try to adapt this system to the global population. As it stands, there are simply too many differences between different social/ethnic/national groups for them to easily function as one giant unit.



Humanity is simply incapable of the level of willpower, maturity, commitment, open-mindedness, and honest communication necessary to ever find any common ground, to integrate into this "One World" concept that's being shoveled around so much. While RBE may work well in isolated bubbles, it is simply impossible to adapt as a long-term solution. At some point, the RBE cell/bubble begins to function as a single entity, and then must compete on a global level for whatever resources the cell can't produce by itself.



If you were to get everyone in the world to willingly and gladly submit to a system where no person has power, there are always outlying variables and facets of human psychology that we simply can't put a finger on. Regardless of how large a role conditioning plays, there are other factors that influence behavior, and these factors are far beyond our means to control. Perhaps it's my own conditioning talking, but I cannot picture a society where no one ever feels like they're not getting their fair share, where no one ever gets greedy and takes "one more" of something. We are woefully incapable of fully calculating the totality of one individual's needs, let alone for the entire human species.



Even then, there are some needs that simply can't be met. To quote Enemy at the Gates,:

I've been such a fool, Vassili. Man will always be a man. There is no new man. We tried so hard to create a society that was equal, where there'd be nothing to envy your neighbour. But there's always something to envy. A smile, a friendship, something you don't have and want to appropriate. In this world, there will always be rich and poor. Rich in gifts, poor in gifts. Rich in love, poor in love.

Unless something happens, something cataclysmic enough to force into alignment the priorities and needs of every human being, there is no solution. I'd like to believe that humanity can adapt, that we can unite for our own good, but it's always just out of reach. It's like that one chore you've been putting off all your life, that you know you're capable of, but you just never get around to it. The problem is that with this, everyone on earth needs to simultaneously stop putting it off, for there to be any hope.

[Abzu]

[quote name="Redd"]The machines will constantly be receiving new information and adjust themselves accordingly, without human intervention. Humans will only initially program them.

I've already addressed the subject of "utopia" but if you insist on going on about it, be my guest.

If you really were open-minded, instead of attacking me and trying to make me appear lower than yourself, wouldn't you instead be attempting to understand me? Wouldn't you be asking me questions instead of flat-out saying it's not possible?[/quote]



Haven't you ever seen Terminator or The Matrix?







[quote name="Redd"]The current state of the world is not acceptable to me, nor should it be for anyone else.[/quote]

Oh I whole heartedly agree with you on that one. There are more problems than I can fuck in a year. It is wholly unacceptable.





One of those problems is intangible currency based on some abstract, no longer having something real behind it. If you ask me, the global economy died ages ago. We're simply burying it. When we needed that first wave of bailout money, the Federal Reserve said 'oh we'll just print more'. There is nothing behind the lender's note. There is no bullion backing the bills and numbers. Mere empty concepts are being bought and sold. Everyone is fucking one another in the fiscal pooper. That needs to change. I just don't see TVP ever happening. Power, dominance is hard coded into us.

[Redd]

@ HbW:

"As it stands, there are simply too many differences between different social/ethnic/national groups for them to easily function as one giant unit."

Hence why we need to completely revolutionize our thinking. We need to stop thinking in terms of class, race, and every other form of division. We need to start thinking of ourselves as humans who need to help each other to survive.



"Humanity is simply incapable of the level of willpower, maturity, commitment, open-mindedness, and honest communication necessary to ever find any common ground"

Are we really? Or is it just pounded into us from birth that we are too weak to do anything and should just accept the current system we're under?



"Perhaps it's my own conditioning talking, but I cannot picture a society where no one ever feels like they're not getting their fair share, where no one ever gets greedy and takes "one more" of something."

Not to be insulting, but I really believe that is your conditioning speaking. Greed is a conditioned behavior. If it wasn't, then people wouldn't help others in times of need. TVP does not guarantee happiness, it doesn't guarantee friendships. It simply guarantees high living standards.



"Unless something happens, something cataclysmic enough to force into alignment the priorities and needs of every human being, there is no solution. I'd like to believe that humanity can adapt, that we can unite for our own good, but it's always just out of reach. It's like that one chore you've been putting off all your life, that you know you're capable of, but you just never get around to it. The problem is that with this, everyone on earth needs to simultaneously stop putting it off, for there to be any hope."

That cataclysmic event is happening now. Half of the world's population lives on less than two dollars a day. In the developed countries industries are failing. The economy is on the brink of fall down in a giant display of homosexuality. We'll either keep this monetary system and repeat this endless cycle, or we'll finally work together to bring about a resource-based economy. The only reason people put off helping others is because it is not profitable.



@ Abzu:

"Haven't you ever seen Terminator or The Matrix?"

That's an example of technology being used incorrectly. As I said before, machines cannot feel. They're not human and they need to stop being thought of as such. They don't care that they're essentially slaves to us; they do what they are programmed to do, without fail.



"When we needed that first wave of bailout money, the Federal Reserve said 'oh we'll just print more'. There is nothing behind the lender's note. There is no bullion backing the bills and numbers. Mere empty concepts are being bought and sold. Everyone is fucking one another in the fiscal pooper. That needs to change. I just don't see TVP ever happening. Power, dominance is hard coded into us."

I agree, and we need to get back on a gold standard before we even think of bring about TVP or anything like it. Power is a learned behavior, just like dominance. Some people care nothing for power, they'd rather be left alone and tend to themselves or their families. They care nothing for dominating people. Domination and power are results of a monetary system. A monetary system cannot function without one group at the top, controlling the supply of money and who gets it.

[Grudge]

why have you all derailed this thread?



Stick to the topic!

[Redd]

Since Ironman is upset over the topic change, anyone that has futher questions or responses to me regarding the Venus Project can send me a PM.

[Grudge]

make a new thread, like I did, and maybe i'll participate in it myself!

[Redd]

Bah, if people really care they'll PM me.

[Haunty]

[quote name="ManOfSteel"]why have you all derailed this thread?[/quote]



Because that's how coversations work. Plus it's not like you were brimming with exciting things to tell us about Iraq/Lenin/whatever your original point was.

[jawn galliano]

cherry-picking because i am tired

Greed is a conditioned behavior. If it wasn't, then people wouldn't help others in times of need.

uhh

If greed was not a conditioned behavior, then people would not help others in times of need.

what



did you mean something else, because this makes absolutely no sense to me. i don't understand how the second statement follows from the first

The only reason people put off helping others is because it is not profitable.

i keep forgetting it's radical oversimplification week (month?) here on the MABB. that is one potential reason, yes, but there are dozens of others. lack of expertise, lack of time, lack of concern for a particular person/group/cause, you could spend ages thinking of reasons people 'put off helping others' that have nothing to do with profit motives. similarly, you can do the same for finding reasons that people choose to help others without profiting (and here i use the term profit to mean monetary gain)