They caught The MAGA Bomber

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Rufus T. Firefly
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They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 27 Oct 2018, 03:52

in Florida, of course. Pro-Trump right wing nut job New Yorker named Cesar Sayoc. :ba:

and if that's not bizarre enough the dude was apparently a male stripper :gay:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 27 Oct 2018, 03:53

also, his name is an anagram for 'A accessory' or 'yo, carcases' :eek:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 27 Oct 2018, 03:56

pictures of his van that is plastered with Pro-Trump / Right Wing / Nazi Shit and Anti-Democrat stickers.

https://imgur.com/a/ij9qiAQ
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Hitoshura » 27 Oct 2018, 05:39

fun side story: steve mnuchin's bank stole his house in 2009, and obama sanctioned it :ba:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Josh » 27 Oct 2018, 05:54

POS
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby zim » 27 Oct 2018, 09:09

i read a lot of nuts talking about how this was setup by democrats and what not. kind of funny to see that it was actually some maga/(josh's preferred insult here) hard-on bearer
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Josh » 27 Oct 2018, 11:01

Of course they are making up shit because they don’t live in reality
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Hitoshura » 27 Oct 2018, 12:46

zim wrote:i read a lot of nuts talking about how this was setup by democrats and what not. kind of funny to see that it was actually some maga/(jorsh's preferred insult here) hard-on bearer


an acquaintance of mine that works in the federal government is holding on tight to the false flag theory, like 12 hours after the arrest and details came out
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 27 Oct 2018, 16:50

Obviously all the important details about this case probably haven't surfaced yet, but after looking into this a bit earlier it seems highly likely that the suspect is suffering from a serious mental illness and wasn't acting on anything even approximating coherent thought. That said, watching this immediately get politicized is disgusting.

I know the following isn't a requirement to grasp this, but having a close fellating lover who suffered from what became serious delusions I've seen first hand how it's possible for someone in need of treatment to live a life informed by a lot of insane thoughts, but in a relatively normal way until something finally snaps.

Maybe the suspect is just a piece of shit who knew exactly what he was doing, but it's hard not to cringe at the thought that the first place we go is characterizing him as representing conservatives as a whole, or as a political operative doing work for the left.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Hitoshura » 27 Oct 2018, 21:48

I can’t speak to this hard-on bearer’s situation or state of mind, but I scrolled through a lot of his twitter feed before they nuked his account and he was clearly heavily into online right-wing conspiracies like pizzagate.

I think that given that bit of background and the overtly political nature of the attacks, it is pretty much impossible to resist the politicization angle (however unfair that may be)
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 27 Oct 2018, 21:56

Why cringe? The yearly death count associated with the American right wing terrorism dwarfs literally every other perpetrator, including islamic terrorism.

American conservatives have eternally shifting standards for what counts as evidence when something makes them look bad. Hate groups, car attacks, bombings, stabbings and beatings never count, but the moment someone sucker punches a neonazi or breaks a starbucks gay man's telescope we never hear the end of how violent leftists are and how democrats need to clean their back yards, all the while a literal KKK grand wizard and unabashed white nationalists run as GOP candidates.

The best part of this is watching the American right and their loyal bootlickers scurry to pin this as a hoax and when declared official by state dept and FBI, declare it a false flag. The synthesis of fake narratives has become so quick that it's scary. We are probably only a few years from complete fascism if opposition continues to remain civil, and the democratic party will have been complicit.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 27 Oct 2018, 22:01

So yeah, unabashedly, fuck the right in every way possible, including the democratic party and anyone who calls for civility. The US does not have a real left wing movement with any sort of high profile and it's high time it emerged with some serious agitation.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 28 Oct 2018, 00:36

Lava, I know that a lot of moderates and many on the left feel the same way as you. I hope the mid terms swing hard left this year because if not this country is fucked. It's gotten to the point now that I wouldn't even be shocked if there is violence from the right if dems take a majority - at this point it should be expected. all we can do is push forward and not cower to fear.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Josh » 28 Oct 2018, 00:42

Lavabug wrote:Why cringe? The yearly death count associated with the American right wing terrorism dwarfs literally every other perpetrator, including islamic terrorism.

American conservatives have eternally shifting standards for what counts as evidence when something makes them look bad. Hate groups, car attacks, bombings, stabbings and beatings never count, but the moment someone sucker punches a neonazi or breaks a starbucks gay man's telescope we never hear the end of how violent leftists are and how democrats need to clean their back yards, all the while a literal KKK grand wizard and unabashed white nationalists run as GOP candidates.

The best part of this is watching the American right and their loyal bootlickers scurry to pin this as a hoax and when declared official by state dept and FBI, declare it a false flag. The synthesis of fake narratives has become so quick that it's scary. We are probably only a few years from complete fascism if opposition continues to remain civil, and the democratic party will have been complicit.


Milton :thingy: 100% spot on and way better than I could have said it.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Hitoshura » 28 Oct 2018, 02:49

Lavabug wrote:So yeah, unabashedly, fuck the right in every way possible, including the democratic party and anyone who calls for civility. The US does not have a real left wing movement with any sort of high profile and it's high time it emerged with some serious agitation.


hard agree on all fronts :santa:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby User » 28 Oct 2018, 13:07

motherfuckit i want to visit the US again, i ain't done yet. stop imploding already
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 28 Oct 2018, 14:22

Lavabug wrote:Why cringe? The yearly death count associated with the American right wing terrorism dwarfs literally every other perpetrator, including islamic terrorism.


You already missed my point. In all likelihood the man who carried this out isn't all there. His family has stated that they tried to get him into treatment. I'm not condoning what he did or taking any sides on this, but the idea of immediately using this event as some kind of bellwether for the political mindset of a substantial portion of the general public of the U.S. is idiotic.

I'm convinced that outside of grandstanding the vast majority of Americans are only marginally interested in politics as a form of entertainment and generally want to be left alone by any and all authorities. Of course this event is shocking and I hope nothing like it ever happens again, but it drives me nuts watching the far left and the far right only recognizing something like this as an opportunity to win elections.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Josh » 28 Oct 2018, 14:31

Paste Human wrote:
Lavabug wrote:Why cringe? The yearly death count associated with the American right wing terrorism dwarfs literally every other perpetrator, including islamic terrorism.


You already missed my point. In all likelihood the man who carried this out isn't all there. His family has stated that they tried to get him into treatment. I'm not condoning what he did or taking any sides on this, but the idea of immediately using this event as some kind of bellwether for the political mindset of a substantial portion of the general public of the U.S. is idiotic.

I'm convinced that outside of grandstanding the vast majority of Americans are only marginally interested in politics as a form of entertainment and generally want to be left alone by any and all authorities. Of course this event is shocking and I hope nothing like it ever happens again, but it drives me nuts watching the far left and the far right only recognizing something like this as an opportunity to win elections.


this is ignoring reality. you are part of the problem if you brush off his overt political "leanings". i dont know how to type or debate online. lava and/or stormy help me out with what im trying to say. this is the kind of shit that pisses me off to no end.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 28 Oct 2018, 15:10

All I'm saying is that if his motives are deemed to have been the result of a psychological disorder (given what has been reported this is highly likely) then I don't understand how his beliefs and what he did are relevant to the political landscape. Does anyone care which politicians John Hinkley Jr. supports these days? Crazy people do crazy things. If you ever talk to someone post-relapse they'll tell you if it wasn't one thing it would have been another. If that's the case it would have nothing to do with politics.

Maybe he will be deemed 100% competent and he'll get what he deserves. Who knows. But so far all I see is political opportunists foaming at the mouth over a pathetic scheme devised by a vulnerable adult and pretending it is somehow part of a sophisticated political discussion.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 28 Oct 2018, 20:05

There is no question the dude is crazy. The problem here is that we quite literary have leaders and “news” organization that encourage this type of behavior. THAT is what a lot of people have a problem with. Much like (josh's preferred insult here), this shit is just a symptom of a much larger disease.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 08:50

I completely agree, although I can't even begin to wrap my head around what a solution or at least a better alternative would be. And no, the equivalent of tampering with the first amendment, eliminating options for self protection or deploying brownshirts aren't solutions since they'll simply cause more and worse problems that are very predictable.

Although the victims and potential victims in this type of event are obviously the most immediate concern, the issue that bothers me is the idea of an enormous group with a well intentioned political leaning being encapsulated by the actions of one person who they most likely abhor. I hate it when the left is lumped in with Stalin and I hate it when the right is lumped in with Hitler. It's a simpleminded, brain dead way of processing daily events and it is poisonous to the concept of civility.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Hitoshura » 29 Oct 2018, 09:57

as much as i am loathe to look to The Market for any kind of solution, i'm of the opinion the media and internet platform markets need to be completely restructured and broken up, for one. audiences and information flows have all been funneled into a handful of highly concentrated choke points, which makes it much, much easier for organizations -- like infowars or white supremacist groups, to get their messages distributed to massive amounts of people where they never could before.

similarly when the national media has been restructured to converge into a handful of corporate outfits who are always going to be on board with the whims of power, it does a wonderful job of neutering the press' ability to function as a check on power!
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 10:03

Mental illness was a part of it. But *maybe* it also had something to do with the American right's explicitly violent, racist and crypto-fascist narratives about (((globalists))) that have produced thousands of other organized attacks against anyone that isn't a white conservative. Any semblance of a middle ground on political violence in America is an illusion created by the biggest perpetrators, and that is the conservative establishment.

It's ok to call a spade a spade. The American left is on infinitely better moral standing than the American right and you can sleep well at night about it. The most militant grandmother-punching antifa group in the United States still has a death count of zero. The most mild high profile crypto-white nationalist groups have a non-zero deathcount, engage in gay and immigrant bashing and their leader openly encourage people to "kill a tranny, just get your fingers around their throat".
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 10:15

Hitoshura wrote:as much as i am loathe to look to The Market for any kind of solution, i'm of the opinion the media and internet platform markets need to be completely restructured and broken up, for one. audiences and information flows have all been funneled into a handful of highly concentrated choke points, which makes it much, much easier for organizations -- like infowars or white supremacist groups, to get their messages distributed to massive amounts of people where they never could before.

similarly when the national media has been restructured to converge into a handful of corporate outfits who are always going to be on board with the whims of power, it does a wonderful job of neutering the press' ability to function as a check on power!


On the other hand the internet offers virtually no barrier to entry when it comes to the delivery and interpretation of news, and within reason there is almost nothing the big players can do to stop that. Relying on FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc. in order to get a pulse on the world is something that will eventually wither away as the baby boomers die off.

Will nut cases generate hateful and misinformed content aimed at mobilizing people? Yes. Will there be an audience for this? Yes. This will always be the case no matter what you do, save for implementing an outright vice squad state where everyone is considered a criminal.

It's not perfect, but the way I see it the occasional fomentation of hatred that triggers a crazy person who probably would have acted out regardless is a fair price to pay for keeping the government from meddling with media content in any broad and significant way. Otherwise content providers seem fairly competent when it comes to shutting down those who use their services to forward a sinister agenda. I realize that gets into the question of whether they should be considered media companies and subject to certain standards, but I'm basically clueless on that subject.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 10:27

Lavabug wrote:Mental illness was a part of it. But *maybe* it also had something the American's right explicitly violent, racist and crypto-fascist narratives about (((globalists))) that have produced thousands of other organized attacks against anyone that isn't a white conservative. Any semblance of a middle ground on political violence in America is an illusion created by the biggest perpetrators, and that is the conservative establishment.

It's ok to call a spade a spade. The American left is on infinitely better moral standing than the American right and you can sleep well at night about it. The most militant grandmother-punching antifa group in the United States still has a death count of zero. The most mild high profile crypto-white nationalist groups have a non-zero deathcount, engage in gay and immigrant bashing and their leader openly encourage people to "kill a tranny, just get your fingers around their throat".


I think you're grasping here. The vast, vast, VAST majority of Americans are essential apolitical. There are far right and far left enclaves throughout the country, but they tend to cluster in communities. Try going 30 seconds without understanding this while watching a news broadcast during an election.

Obviously I'm bothered when events like this happen, but as Stormy alluded to the media (they earn money entertaining an audience) has a vested interest in blowing these events out of proportion, and unfortunately it tends to diminish minor but important aspects of the story. In this case it would be mental illness, or that practically zero conservatives subscribe to a belief that even comes close to categorical hatred.

Unless you're somehow contributing to this message board from 1930's Nazi Germany I think you're mistaking rare but spectacular events with commonality.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 10:49

Like wut? Most conservatives hold some pretty authoritarian and racist views on policing and socioeconomic topics dude. You're just not paying attention. Or trying really hard to see a middle ground where there really is none.

Hate crimes in the United States are also increasingly common, this takes 2 seconds to verify:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... b31b2ae95f

You're also hearing about them more because there are thousands more local and national media outlets now than there were in the past, with a level of detail in coverage that is unprecedented. You're about to witness the massacre of immigrants at the Mexican border on live television as WN groups mobilize to meet them in battle gear, in full HD, facilitated by right wing media powerhouses.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 10:57

We fucking know what password the Pitt shooter used on his Gab account know for fuck's sake, it was '1488'. What is this bullshit about diminishing important aspects of the story? We can get much more information than ever before from news outlets.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 11:11

Lavabug wrote:Like wut? Most conservatives hold some pretty authoritarian and racist views on policing and socioeconomic topics dude. You're just not paying attention. Or trying really hard to see a middle ground where there really is none.

Hate crimes in the United States are also increasingly common, this takes 2 seconds to verify:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... b31b2ae95f

You're also hearing about them more because there are thousands more local and national media outlets now than there were in the past, with a level of detail in coverage that is unprecedented. You're about to witness the massacre of immigrants at the Mexican border on live television as WN groups mobilize to meet them in battle gear, in full HD, facilitated by right wing media powerhouses.


Provide me with empirical evidence that "Most conservatives hold some pretty authoritarian and racist views on policing and socioeconomic topics." Also in the original post I responded to you characterized hate crimes (which couldn't be more bullshit of a term) as extremely common before editing it out, which I think speaks to how loosely you're willing to discuss something you apparently want to be seen as meaning a lot to you.

This mentality that the entire U.S. is somehow rampant with overt pre-civil rights era racism that goes unchecked is insane. I hate that racially motivated crimes occur, but I also hate that the mass media goes out of its way to make it seem as though the entire country is in the midst of genocide, and then particularly stupid people start believing it.

Do yourself a favor: get to know your neighbors, visit the local bar every now and then, go for walks around the neighborhood, go to city council meetings, etc. and decide for yourself what proportion of the individuals you encounter could legitimately be described as having radical or hateful political views. Ask yourself if you feel threatened by what you see, and compare it to what you see in the media.

Unless you live in the south side of the official city of the chicago cubs or something I'm guessing you'll be ok.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 12:19

Social science is not anywhere near as rigorous as physics, but this one of the pieces we have. But I doubt any amount of empirical evidence will sway you anyway if you've already made up your mind, which I suspect is the case because you're already refusing to acknowledge an empirically-verifiable increase in hate crimes. I updated "extremely common" as I intended to post "increasingly common", but I actually went and verified before I updated my statement to a more rigorous one after the fact. But I doubt rigor is something you care about if you're seriously claiming that it's not that there are more violent hate crimes, it's just that news outlets blow them out of proportion. Hard eye roll. Here's your empirical evidence, FWIW:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/opin ... tract.html

The old white conservative base in the United States was dragged kicking and screaming through the Civil Rights act and continues to yearn for the "good old days" when America was great, and the existing power structures went unchallenged. The new white conservative voter base seriously entertains the idea of BLM being a serious terrorist threat comparable to ISIS, and being asked to not say unsavory things about race or gender to be literally equivalent to Maoism. A cursory reading into the average conservatives positions on welfare, housing, immigration, and employment is also skewed universally in the direction of less equality and less brown people = more gooder. Come on man, the evidence is staring you in the face and you're willingly choosing to ignore it. If you don't recognize that the racism and political violence in this country is incredibly one-sided, as a lot of Americans currently want to believe, then shit like this will only continue to be more common.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 12:27

I was born in Europe and I live in West fucking Virginia, a state that went 100% red, I dare say I have a *tiny* bit more perspective than you're trying to claim I do, so spare me the condescension.

Literally everyone I know outside of my workplace other than a handful of friends holds some political opinions diametrically opposed to mine, relish over people losing their healthcare and wages staying low, celebrate vice squad repression of a BLM protest on social media and one of them is an actual proudboy who proudly carries an anti-communist tattoo and white pride hand signs all over his social media. The main reason I don't attend that place of gathering anymore.

Peers browner than I have gotten harassed by MAGA types. Funny you mention council meetings, as I follow the FB group for my town, even though I can't vote on anything. A local boomer bigmouth celebrity loves to go on rants about how globalists are ruining the economy with forced diversity and open borders and how we've all become too PC.

Edit: Oh yeah, I remembered:
My workplace hosted Milo Younnapolous last year courtesy of the Campus Republican group and a shitstorm of racism and hostility to minorities ensued, to such a degree that the university president barred him from ever coming again. I also have spotted "It's Okay to Be White" propaganda stickers on my way to work, anyone who has me added on facebook has seen these.

Maybe it's you that needs to get off your white centrist high horse and read a bit more before placating legitimate criticisms of political lopsidedness or suggesting others live in an echo chamber created by the media.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 12:47

I'm not even going to dignify the term "hate crime" given how ridiculous it is. Try to explain to a 70+ year old from the U.S. that there is more overt racism and "hate crimes" today as compared to when they were in their youth and be prepared to get slapped in the face.

You're going to hate me for this, but I also have a hard time sympathizing with those who choose to live in a community made up of people with whom they apparently have nothing in common with, and then wonder why they're uncomfortable. I don't endorse anything you said about your living situation, but the fact that there are socially and politically distinct states and even regions in the U.S. is in my mind one of the most appealing parts of the country. If I had been born in Birmingham AL I probably would have left asap, and I wouldn't have even had hard feelings for the people who got me to that place.

This idea that everyone in the U.S. is supposed to agree or even get along is almost as childish as feeling as though any disagreements are tantamount to a legitimate threat. Sometimes it transpires into that and of course it gets addressed, but let's face the fact that most of the time it never comes to that. The media does a horrible job of making that part of the narrative clear.

Life isn't perfect and there will always be racism, but I think you're blowing this out of proportion and I believe that continuing to insist that events like these are for sure a political matter is the worse case scenario.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 12:58

Paste Human wrote:I'm not even going to dignify the term "hate crime" given how ridiculous it is. Try to explain to a 70+ year old from the U.S. that there is more overt racism and hate crimes today as compared to when they were in their youth and be prepared to get slapped in the face.

You're going to hate me for this, but I also have a hard time sympathizing with those who choose to live in a community made up of people with whom they apparently have nothing in common with, and then wonder why they're uncomfortable. I don't endorse anything you said about your living situation, but the fact that there are socially and politically distinct states and even regions in the U.S. is in my mind one of the most appealing parts of the country. If I had been born in Birmingham I probably would have left asap, and I wouldn't have even had hard feelings for the people who got me to that place.

This idea that everyone in the U.S. is supposed to agree or even get along is almost as childish as feeling as though any disagreements are tantamount to a legitimate threat. Sometimes it transpires into that and of course it gets addressed, but let's face the fact that most of the time it never comes to that. The media does a horrible job of making that part of the narrative clear.

Life isn't perfect and there will always be racism, but I think you're blowing this out of proportion and I believe that continuing to insist that events like these are for sure a political matter is the worse case scenario.

I'm here to get a phd, not live here permanently. I met some great people here, including my girlfriend. I can tell you from experience having lived in 3 countries that the race relations and politically motivated killings in the United States are by far the worst I've ever seen. A nationwide shitstorm over a football player protesting vice squad brutality against black people, really? And no other foreign national I know is walking away with a positive impression about American race relations or with any delusions that political and racial violence isn't lopsided and that there is any sort of balance either

You can sit this one out and continue to ignore/downplay a growth in racially and politically charged violence, if that helps you sleep better at night. I'm going to continue to call bullshit where I see it.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 13:14

That's fine, and it's nothing personal. I've lived in the U.S. my entire life and have spent the past 10+ years in very urban Minneapolis neighborhoods. This isn't a destination city or anything, but it's big enough that you get a bit of everything.

In my personal experience I haven't noticed any uptick in racially or politically motivated crimes. However the criteria for what constitutes as one has almost certainly changed, so there's that. Aside from a comment here and there I can't even think of anything. I work very closely every day with drivers who come in from four surrounding states, and outside contractors who travel the country on an ongoing basis as a result of what they do. Easily 120+ people from all walks of life per day. Nothing there either.

Maybe you're right and I just tune a lot of stuff out, or maybe I hit the jackpot and happen to live in a very easygoing area and all these people I encounter at work are some kind of exception that would probably be statistically impossible given the terms you have used.

At any rate from what I have seen it appears that the media blows this type of thing completely out of proportion and leads some people to mistakenly believe that the world can be boiled down to a ridiculously simple "us vs. them" scenario. I understand why this happens, given that it makes content easy to produce and the viewership has no problem processing it.

Life is much more complicated than that, and it would be awful if it wasn't.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 13:26

Paste Human wrote:In my personal experience I haven't noticed any uptick in racially or politically motivated crimes. However the criteria for what constitutes as one has almost certainly changed, so there's that. Aside from a comment here and there I can't even think of anything.

I think a pro-abortion Arizona democrat getting shot in the face or planned parenthood clinics getting shot up are still solid examples of politically motivated crimes. And mass shootings at all-black churches while wearing pro South African apartheid patches are still racially motivated crimes, I think. Maybe they weren't considered hate crimes when the KKK bombed all black churches back in the day. If the definition of a hate crime has expanded a little bit since, that's okay.

If people become socially aware of systemic racism and racist/political violence, that's a good thing. You're gonna be okay even if the media reports on these stories more, I promise.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 29 Oct 2018, 13:36

Yes, these things do happen. I'm not arguing with you on that. No one is. It just isn't this epidemic the media and the morons who watch it as gospel make it out to be, and there are cases that can easily be dismissed (not forgotten) as having been politically motivated given the mental capacity of the perpetrator.

That's really the only point I'm making here. And no, I don't agree that media over-emphasizing the degree of racism, sexism, political extremists, etc. is acceptable. It's dishonest and it probably has a negative impact on society, at least in the U.S.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 19:55

So essentially, you just don't want to hear about racial and political violence because it makes you uncomfortable. Cool. If only the media reported on it less, racial tensions wouldn't be so bad. If we'd only not talk about organized racism and political violence there would be less of it. That's the real problem.

Much like if your doctor didn't tell you cancer was eating away at your brain stem you'd stay healthy.

Challenge yourself just a little bit more man. It'll do you some good to read some international news about the US and gain a bit of perspective outside of your bubble.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 29 Oct 2018, 20:56

Also, I'll concede I'm more politically minded, politically literate and partisan than most and I don't judge any working class person who isn't. I'm not even suggesting you're morally required to do anything about it. But if you intend to remain neutral, don't downplay the topic and pretend it's a product of sensationalist media over-reporting on the topic of race relations and political violence, because that position fails to distinguish itself from right-wing talking points about muh Lugenpresse. Keep an open mind to the fact this pervasive mistrust in media outlets might actually be a consequence of partisan efforts from existing power structures to sow it, and being apolitical does not make you immune to these efforts.

A thought that came to mind: American conservatives have unquestioning devotion to the constitution as if it were the infallible word of god and literally masturbate over the founding fathers as if they were morally perfect creatures, which is perfectly and easily describable as an authoritarian viewpoint. To say nothing on conservative handling of the war on drugs, the patriot act and vice squad militarization (all of which the democratic establishment is also partially responsible for, for the record). They can pretend to be all about limited government intervention and cutting social spending, but they sure love their rule of law, the vice squad, jingoism and the troops.

I'll also leave this here, it's still in effect.
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When the conservative establishment in this country starts barring Klansmen and white nationalists from joining their ranks as hard as we bar communists and socialists from running for office, we can begin to entertain the thought that there is a middle ground in mainstream American politics. Until then, we are stuck in an ever-shrinking Overton gay man's telescope where we tolerate racism and one-sided political violence at the highest levels, particularly in the conservative establishment.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Eric » 30 Oct 2018, 07:38

Lavabug wrote:Why cringe? The yearly death count associated with the American right wing terrorism dwarfs literally every other perpetrator, including islamic terrorism.

American conservatives have eternally shifting standards for what counts as evidence when something makes them look bad. Hate groups, car attacks, bombings, stabbings and beatings never count, but the moment someone sucker punches a neonazi or breaks a starbucks gay man's telescope we never hear the end of how violent leftists are and how democrats need to clean their back yards, all the while a literal KKK grand wizard and unabashed white nationalists run as GOP candidates.

The best part of this is watching the American right and their loyal bootlickers scurry to pin this as a hoax and when declared official by state dept and FBI, declare it a false flag. The synthesis of fake narratives has become so quick that it's scary. We are probably only a few years from complete fascism if opposition continues to remain civil, and the democratic party will have been complicit.


lol, Alex Jones over here ;)

...and do you even believe that first sentence you wrote? No way that's true...unless you're excluding 9/11, of course.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 30 Oct 2018, 09:35

Nice hyperbole, but the key word is yearly my dude. And yes, over the last 15 years or so about 3/4 of all domestic terrorist attacks with ideological motives are perpetrated by the far right. You won't catch me being apologetic or downplaying islamic extremism, but the likelihood of any American on US soil to die by the hands of an islamist is currently dwarfed by far right extremists. There are dozens of sources you can use to verify this claim as rigorously as you want it, but here's just one:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Eric » 30 Oct 2018, 11:10

...you should notice that this chart is 9/12/2001-12/31/16. If you go back one day, you can add 2,000+ plus deaths to islamic extremists. I guess this statistic only works if you don't count 9/11...why would you exclude it? Not relevant?

And the pulse shooting (2016) accounts for 49 deaths...almost 20% in the past 16 years....If I count 9/11, a mere 2% ;)
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 30 Oct 2018, 16:01

Lavabug wrote:So essentially, you just don't want to hear about racial and political violence because it makes you uncomfortable. Cool. If only the media reported on it less, racial tensions wouldn't be so bad. If we'd only not talk about organized racism and political violence there would be less of it. That's the real problem.

Much like if your doctor didn't tell you cancer was eating away at your brain stem you'd stay healthy.

Challenge yourself just a little bit more man. It'll do you some good to read some international news about the US and gain a bit of perspective outside of your bubble.


I don't want to drag this out much longer because a) I never come here with the intention of talking about politics, and b) I'm pretty sure I have made myself clear on where I stand with this issue.

So essentially, you just don't want to hear about racial and political violence because it makes you uncomfortable. Cool. If only the media reported on it less, racial tensions wouldn't be so bad. If we'd only not talk about organized racism and political violence there would be less of it. That's the real problem.


I didn't say violent events were being over reported. I said I felt that are they being overemphasized in a manner that suggests that there is a lot more of it than is actually the case, to the degree that I think it might be misleading to viewers/readers who depend on the news to get a pulse on the general sentiment of our society. From my own personal experience given what I see reporting on certain issues such as the prevalence of racial/political violence are overblown for the sake of ratings (I'm not saying these events aren't devastating and don't matter) and in my opinion that's dishonest and irresponsible.

The idea that you decided without any basis that I don't read international news is almost as embarrassing to me as the idea that you think that is somehow relevant to how I gather information about what is happening within the borders of my own country. How condescending. In case you really want to know, yes I do get news, analysis and opinions from a variety of outlets from around the world. My father's passion in life is finance and business, and it would be difficult to connect with him if I wasn't checking up on at least a dozen online periodicals and journals from all over the globe.

For example, examining a mining company is almost impossible to do without extensive research on countries and regions that are usually only ever discussed in the West when there is a plane crash or mudslide, and then from there it is necessary to get into their politics to determine how viable a project might be, given how politically sensitive a giant industrial operation tends to be. I would agree that getting that broad of a scope on the world is valuable in some ways, but it is absolutely not necessary in order to have a valid opinion about the social and political climate of one's own country.

I'm sure this is unnecessary at this point, but the following is what I suspected was the case (we still don't know for sure) and it is generally what I was trying to get across from the beginning. Hopefully it clears up any confusion, because I don't enjoy debating about stuff on line or in person so I generally don't do it. I think I struggle to make my point clear a lot of times, and most of the time I feel like a piece of shit for maybe upsetting people by accident.

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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 30 Oct 2018, 16:37

When the conservative establishment in this country starts barring Klansmen and white nationalists from joining their ranks as hard as we bar communists and socialists from running for office, we can begin to entertain the thought that there is a middle ground in mainstream American politics. Until then, we are stuck in an ever-shrinking Overton gay man's telescope where we tolerate racism and one-sided political violence at the highest levels, particularly in the conservative establishment.


Aside from Strom Thurmond - who began his political career as a democrat - I can't think of any overtly KKK or white nationalists from modern times in U.S. Government office.

On the other hand we have Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Kshama Sawant. This is off the top of my head, mostly from reading the St. Paul Pioneer Press at lunch during the work week - not some conspiracy blog.

Of course I could have easily never even heard of prominent elected conservative modern day politicians who openly identify as members of the KKK or as being white nationalists. If you're referring to voters who identify that way and support conservatives, I would also have to admit to have never seeing an abundance or even any evidence of the left routinely rejecting groups like socialists, communists, antifa, etc. In short I don't quite know what you're getting at.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup » 30 Oct 2018, 18:11

Paste Human wrote:Aside from Strom Thurmond - who began his political career as a democrat - I can't think of any overtly KKK or white nationalists from modern times in U.S. Government office.

On the other hand we have Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Kshama Sawant. This is off the top of my head, mostly from reading the St. Paul Pioneer Press at lunch during the work week - not some conspiracy blog.


the entire wing of pre- and post-war southern democrats of which thurmond was a member shared the same overtly racist beliefs, fought to block passage of civil rights legislation for generations, railed against judicial decisions enforcing desegregation, and made racist arguments to win elections. richard russell of georgia, john stennis of mississippi, george wallace of alabama, harry byrd of virginia, and jesse helms of north carolina are but a few of the more prominent examples. and their political descendants can be found in office at all levels of government today :gay:

in more recent years, representative steve king of iowa has become the go-to racist in congress, largely because he is the most openly racist racist in congress. jeff sessions has a long and storied history of suppressing minority voters and minority judges in alabama. plus, while they're not in federal office yet, there are plenty of overt bigots running for congress on the republican ticket this year; i can provide you with more details on these people if you would like

then, as you say, on the other hand we have bernie sanders, alexandria ocasio-cortez, and kshama sawant. none of whom advocate anything resembling racist policies against white people, but all of whom suffer from having the word "socialist" in their political affiliation. and only one of whom is an actual us government official

this is a bad false equivalency homie :santa:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 30 Oct 2018, 18:31

When the conservative establishment in this country starts barring Klansmen and white nationalists from joining their ranks as hard as we bar communists and socialists from running for office


I was responding to the above quote. I guess you would have to fill me in on how the people I quoted are not government officials, and whether they don't identify as socialists or communists or whatever.

I was aware that political terminology in the U.S. has shifted over the years, but that degree of trivia is way beyond me. Interesting.

Like I said I spoke my part - hopefully it wasn't terrible - and I'll continue to begrudgingly absorb and process the news, steal my neighbor's mail, cum all over my dad's face, etc.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup » 30 Oct 2018, 18:56

people you quoted :huh: you quoted lavagreg, he is not a government official. you didn't quote anyone else :santa:

i am not sure what you are saying above. all i am saying is there are plenty of racists in congress & other high offices. and comparing strom thurmond & his racist legacy on the right to a socialist US senator, a democratic socialist candidate for congress (not an officeholder), and a socialist city councilwoman (not a federal officeholder) on the left is a false equivalency
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 30 Oct 2018, 19:17

He said (presumably) that the left bars
communists and socialists from running for office
as best they can, or something to that effect. that's what I was responding to. I guess I didn't realize there is such a distinction with the degree of office these politicians hold, especially given that the extremity of views seems to be the primary point of concern in this discussion.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 30 Oct 2018, 20:02

Eric, I can do math too. :santa: Number of events + number of fatal casualties are still led by right wing over islamism in the last 15 years. Turning the dial back a single day to 9/11, including the single outlier in a huge number of casualties, they would still be dwarfed in number of attacks per year by RW extremists but not fatal casualties. I was pretty clear and honest about this, and not diminishing islamic terror, but the statement still stands. The right in the US now kills more people and commits more attacks than islamists. Period.


i am not sure what you are saying above. all i am saying is there are plenty of racists in congress & other high offices. and comparing strom thurmond & his racist legacy on the right to a socialist US senator, a democratic socialist candidate for congress (not an officeholder), and a socialist city councilwoman (not a federal officeholder) on the left is a false equivalency

and not a single one of them communists I might add

Democrats reject associations with actual the left because of the post-McCarthy zeitgeist we live in, where communists are dehumanized to the point very few people bat an eye to statements/shirts with statements "kill a commie for mommy" and "better dead than red". Imagine anyone saying something that explicit about conservatives or libertarians and you'll realize just how normalized political violence is against one wing of the political spectrum and not the other. Go around hashtagging a far milder #punchanazi and watch how many self-proclaimed centrists and right wingers swoop in to defend their free speech.

Nancy Pelosi among many other establishment democrats have explicitly stated "we are capitalists" and remain uncritical of free market practices in the face of many of its negative consequences, and praise capitalists instead of worker movements and even giving them credit when a pro-labor struggle ends up working out favorably (see Hillary's appraisal of Jeff Bezos raising amazon's minimum wage, rather than praising the workers and unions that actually put pressure to make it a possibility).
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Dr. Gonzo » 31 Oct 2018, 07:33

There's one dude like this in every town. The one's in my area are very "get off my lawn" about everything they seem to not comprehend. Or anything that goes against the grain of what they believe in. They seem to be more focused on what's right or wrong, which is really dumb. There is no right or wrong. One trumpeteer I work with believes that it's possible to kill a person by taking two daddy long legs and drying then out and soaking them in water. Then giving the water to an enemy and making them drink it. This is the type of thought process that is particularly frightening to us. They will never change, unfortunately.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Eric » 31 Oct 2018, 08:18

Lavabug wrote:Eric, I can do math too. :santa: Number of events + number of fatal casualties are still led by right wing over islamism in the last 15 years. Turning the dial back a single day to 9/11, including the single outlier in a huge number of casualties, they would still be dwarfed in number of attacks per year by RW extremists but not fatal casualties. I was pretty clear and honest about this, and not diminishing islamic terror, but the statement still stands. The right in the US now kills more people and commits more attacks than islamists. Period.


I get what you're saying (typing)...but at this point we should just admit to finagling these stats to fit our views.

You can exclude 9/11 (outlier, right?) and keep it within 15 years to get your point across. Likewise, if I go back only 5-10 years, aren't islamists killing more people than righties? I guess it comes down to how far back we want to look...

A problem with the graph/chart is that it doesn't show how many attacks occurred each year...only deaths. That'd be more interesting for both of us.

Creative statistics aside...the right does NOT kill more people than islamists.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 31 Oct 2018, 10:50

Eric wrote:[
Creative statistics aside...the right does NOT kill more people than islamists.


world wide? you're correct.

in America? nope.

here's another chart which begins with the year President Obama took office (and the subsequent rise of the Tea Party) up until the first year of (josh's preferred insult here).

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courtesy of the Anti-Defamation League which has been keeping stats on all forms of extremism.

when people say shit like both sides are bad or the left or Islamist (in america) are more violent than the right - they really have no idea what they are talking about.
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