They caught The MAGA Bomber

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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 31 Oct 2018, 14:52

Lavabug wrote:Eric, I can do math too. :santa: Number of events + number of fatal casualties are still led by right wing over islamism in the last 15 years. Turning the dial back a single day to 9/11, including the single outlier in a huge number of casualties, they would still be dwarfed in number of attacks per year by RW extremists but not fatal casualties. I was pretty clear and honest about this, and not diminishing islamic terror, but the statement still stands. The right in the US now kills more people and commits more attacks than islamists. Period.


i am not sure what you are saying above. all i am saying is there are plenty of racists in congress & other high offices. and comparing strom thurmond & his racist legacy on the right to a socialist US senator, a democratic socialist candidate for congress (not an officeholder), and a socialist city councilwoman (not a federal officeholder) on the left is a false equivalency

and not a single one of them communists I might add

Democrats reject associations with actual the left because of the post-McCarthy zeitgeist we live in, where communists are dehumanized to the point very few people bat an eye to statements/shirts with statements "kill a commie for mommy" and "better dead than red". Imagine anyone saying something that explicit about conservatives or libertarians and you'll realize just how normalized political violence is against one wing of the political spectrum and not the other. Go around hashtagging a far milder #punchanazi and watch how many self-proclaimed centrists and right wingers swoop in to defend their free speech.

Nancy Pelosi among many other establishment democrats have explicitly stated "we are capitalists" and remain uncritical of free market practices in the face of many of its negative consequences, and praise capitalists instead of worker movements and even giving them credit when a pro-labor struggle ends up working out favorably (see Hillary's appraisal of Jeff Bezos raising amazon's minimum wage, rather than praising the workers and unions that actually put pressure to make it a possibility).


It's disturbing that you would express concern over merely badmouthing communism in a crude way within a post about which belief system has been more responsible for death. If this is so important to you why not include a chart of the death toll from the communist regimes in China and the Soviet Union?

I also don't understand this:

When the conservative establishment in this country starts barring Klansmen and white nationalists from joining their ranks as hard as we bar communists and socialists from running for office, we can begin to entertain the thought that there is a middle ground in mainstream American politics


I named three individuals who are openly socialist and hold varying levels of political office off the top of my head. They seem to even be held in high esteem by the left. Maybe there are more that I'm not aware of. Specifically who are these Klansmen and white nationalists who hold office that I'm not aware of? Whether or not people of this persuasion run for office is irrelevant to me, given the outrageous figures who inevitably try but never succeed to get elected.

Finally, if Nancy Pelosi and these other establishment democrats you alluded to are truly in favor of free market capitalism they would be against the practice of government mandated wage floors, which to me makes their remarks about what Amazon did disingenuous to some degree. I won't get into where I personally stand on that issue given the nature of my work and the strange commingling it has with unions, but if you actually look into the tenants of free market capitalism (without even necessarily agreeing with them) you would very quickly understand that the two concepts are completely incompatible, and you would have never made that statement.

I don't care at all that you lean left and of course I don't have negative personal feelings about it, but maybe it would be a good idea to sit down and read a bit more about prominent ideas you don't necessarily agree with. I have done this (admittedly not as much as I should) and although on a number of occasions I came out the other end disagreeing more than ever, there's at least a better understanding of where the other side is coming from.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 31 Oct 2018, 20:30

Because we're talking about political violence in the United States.

Calling for communists in America to be killed and legally barred from running for office is a very different thing from badmouthing communism as a concept. Very false equivalency.

Regulated capitalism with welfare (ie: most of europe with government mandated wage floors and functional social services) is still capitalism. Please don't be one of those college-age kids that thinks having $15 min wage, universal healthcare and a free market with non-zero environmental regulation and progressive taxation (that still gives overwhelming power to rich elites) means a country is socialist. The only true free market capitalist society with no regulation at all exists only in the mind of american libertarians and austrian school anarchocapitalists (who by the way, universally back fascists like Pinochet and Jair Bolsonaro and have easily found connections to white supremacist movements in the United States). In practice, capitalism only exists with a state that protects the private property rights of elite few who own everything in the country.

If you're going to criticize left wing or socialist tenants, at least know what they are. Defaulting to the democratic party as an example of the left only shows how trapped you are in the political bubble of the US that is centered so far to the right that people legitimately entertain the idea that John McCain was a socialist. Why? Because he had somewhat backed universal healthcare and supported the FDA's increased regulation of tobacco. Get a grip on reality. Universal healthcare, hell, even revolutionary ideas like Universal basic income are backed by many (union-busting, anti-labor) venture capitalists like Elon Musk and Andrew Yang who now runs for office as a democrat.

Whatever negative opinion you have of unions at your workplace in particular, they exist for democratizing the workplace instead of leaving decisions to a boardroom of 10 people, and the collective bargaining of labor rights and wages. Democrats and republicans have both made efforts to weaken them with countless legislation. They've also turned a blind eye to unethical corporations attempts to bust them up by hiring third parties, sow mistrust and discourage if not threaten their employees, and even had military and vice squad force backed suppression of worker movements across the country for the crime of demanding 40 hour work weeks, non-starvation wages in the light of massive bonuses for shareholders and livable working conditions (see WV miner strikes, May Day revolts for a few violent examples.) I've read a few things by old and new celebrators of free market capitalism: Adam Smith and Milton Friedman. Maybe you need to read a bit from it's critics: Karl Marx and a more contemporary Richard Wolff (far more accessible). Try to further your reading on American working class history and start questioning things a bit harder, I'm willing to help. And if
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Eric » 01 Nov 2018, 07:05

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
Eric wrote:[
Creative statistics aside...the right does NOT kill more people than islamists.


world wide? you're correct.

in America? nope.

here's another chart which begins with the year President Obama took office (and the subsequent rise of the Tea Party) up until the first year of (jorsh's preferred insult here).

Image

courtesy of the Anti-Defamation League which has been keeping stats on all forms of extremism.

when people say shit like both sides are bad or the left or Islamist (in america) are more violent than the right - they really have no idea what they are talking about.


Again, no.

Your ADL graph shows 'incidents of murder,' which obviously does NOT mean 'number of murders.' If it did, 2015-2016 Islamist violence would be off the chart the from San Bernardino and Pulse shootings.

If you and Lavabug want to claim there are more 'instances' of right wing violence, sure...your sources suggest that (hopefully they aren't excluding pantifa, (josh's preferred insult here) supporters getting attacked in public for no reason, etc.), but murders...absolutely not. Muslims kill more people than right wingers. In the world and America.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 01 Nov 2018, 11:48

You are invited to re-read the graphs. This time, more slowly, and with less pre-conceived bias.

Done? Here's the take-away: right wing terrorism wins in both number of instances AND number of fatalities *after* 9/11 in the United States. Whether they include antifa is irrelevant, since their death count in the United States in the same time frame still zero. If you want to draw moral equivalencies between punching people and murder, go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Oh by the way, on the topic of normalization of political violence towards one wing and not the other, this just came up today on my feed: https://www.revealnews.org/article/righ ... qnNHtjHi6E
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Paste Human » 01 Nov 2018, 15:19

Lavabug wrote:Because we're talking about political violence in the United States.

Calling for communists in America to be killed and legally barred from running for office is a very different thing from badmouthing communism as a concept. Very false equivalency.

Regulated capitalism with welfare (ie: most of europe with government mandated wage floors and functional social services) is still capitalism. Please don't be one of those college-age kids that thinks having $15 min wage, universal healthcare and a free market with non-zero environmental regulation and progressive taxation (that still gives overwhelming power to rich elites) means a country is socialist. The only true free market capitalist society with no regulation at all exists only in the mind of american libertarians and austrian school anarchocapitalists (who by the way, universally back fascists like Pinochet and Jair Bolsonaro and have easily found connections to white supremacist movements in the United States). In practice, capitalism only exists with a state that protects the private property rights of elite few who own everything in the country.

If you're going to criticize left wing or socialist tenants, at least know what they are. Defaulting to the democratic party as an example of the left only shows how trapped you are in the political bubble of the US that is centered so far to the right that people legitimately entertain the idea that John McCain was a socialist. Why? Because he had somewhat backed universal healthcare and supported the FDA's increased regulation of tobacco. Get a grip on reality. Universal healthcare, hell, even revolutionary ideas like Universal basic income are backed by many (union-busting, anti-labor) venture capitalists like Elon Musk and Andrew Yang who now runs for office as a democrat.

Whatever negative opinion you have of unions at your workplace in particular, they exist for democratizing the workplace instead of leaving decisions to a boardroom of 10 people, and the collective bargaining of labor rights and wages. Democrats and republicans have both made efforts to weaken them with countless legislation. They've also turned a blind eye to unethical corporations attempts to bust them up by hiring third parties, sow mistrust and discourage if not threaten their employees, and even had military and vice squad force backed suppression of worker movements across the country for the crime of demanding 40 hour work weeks, non-starvation wages in the light of massive bonuses for shareholders and livable working conditions (see WV miner strikes, May Day revolts for a few violent examples.) I've read a few things by old and new celebrators of free market capitalism: Adam Smith and Milton Friedman. Maybe you need to read a bit from it's critics: Karl Marx and a more contemporary Richard Wolff (far more accessible). Try to further your reading on American working class history and start questioning things a bit harder, I'm willing to help. And if


I think you're responding to a lot of arguments that you must routinely encounter from certain political stripes that I generally don't have. I'm not indifferent because obviously I do have opinions based on life experience and historical evidence, but I don't really have any definite political affiliations and I think my general beliefs and lifestyle would probably upset just as many on the left as it would on the right. I do agree with a lot of what libertarians have to say, but for example if you criticize their non-aggression principle as naive watch how quickly their supposed open mindedness to other opinions collapses.

If you want I can break down everything you said (not tonight) and give my insight, because you obviously put a lot of time into it and made some compelling points. I don't agree with most of it, but I respect what you had to say.

Otherwise if you're truly interested in carrying out this conversation I can give you my phone number because that would probably be a much faster and more efficient way to exchange ideas. Or like I said I can break down what you said and give my opinion, but given past experiences with this type of exchange I know how long breaking down huge posts into ten different quotes several times can take and I just don't have the time to do that indefinitely, unless it's actually important to you that I do so.

If I didn't make my opinion on these matters coherent enough throughout this topic let me know and I can probably come up with a succinct rundown that would encapsulate it,.

Funny (and frustrating) how in all this political talk people often forget or don't even recognize that individuals sometimes live perfectly fine but very different lifestyles from one another, and as a result might have very different but equally valid and sophisticated political views. Not because they're stupid or a monster or anything, but because we can't all be lumped into one group for very legitimate reasons that generally have nothing to do with the quality of one's character.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Eric » 03 Nov 2018, 21:20

Lavabug wrote:You are invited to re-read the graphs. This time, more slowly, and with less pre-conceived bias.

Done? Here's the take-away: right wing terrorism wins in both number of instances AND number of fatalities *after* 9/11 in the United States. Whether they include antifa is irrelevant, since their death count in the United States in the same time frame still zero. If you want to draw moral equivalencies between punching people and murder, go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Oh by the way, on the topic of normalization of political violence towards one wing and not the other, this just came up today on my feed: https://www.revealnews.org/article/righ ... qnNHtjHi6E


That poor man.

https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/201 ... upporters/
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Josh » 04 Nov 2018, 05:02

lol breitbart

That’s all I needed to see. Thanks for the laugh
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Eric » 04 Nov 2018, 05:14

jorsh wrote:lol breitbart

That’s all I needed to see. Thanks for the laugh



If you bothered to open it you'd see each example is linked to its original news source.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 04 Nov 2018, 06:37

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until you linked to breitbart. :lol: You won’t get much nazi sympathy on this forum....

Try the pantera, as in mark loves pantera, pantera forum - it’s become an echo chamber of extreme right wing nut jobs and there are even a few euros on there who are like minded. :santa:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 04 Nov 2018, 06:43

oh, and just in case you weren’t keeping count - the shooting in Tallahassee yesterday that killed 2 and injured 5 more at a yoga studio before offing himself turned out to be a right wing Incel misogynist, racist nut job who has a history with the local vice squad for harassing women and not only posted shit online in regards to said but uploaded fucking songs about how much he hated women as well.
https://eu.tallahassee.com/story/news/2 ... 871941002/
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby rhino » 04 Nov 2018, 06:55

I just want to say peace my dudes :santa:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Hitoshura » 04 Nov 2018, 07:03

Eric wrote:
Lavabug wrote:You are invited to re-read the graphs. This time, more slowly, and with less pre-conceived bias.

Done? Here's the take-away: right wing terrorism wins in both number of instances AND number of fatalities *after* 9/11 in the United States. Whether they include antifa is irrelevant, since their death count in the United States in the same time frame still zero. If you want to draw moral equivalencies between punching people and murder, go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Oh by the way, on the topic of normalization of political violence towards one wing and not the other, this just came up today on my feed: https://www.revealnews.org/article/righ ... qnNHtjHi6E


That poor man.

https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/201 ... upporters/


lmao, cmon man

how many of these involve actual violence against human beings (and again, we're talking strictly assault-at-most versus actual murders committed by rightwingers), and how many of these incidents are either property damage or posts on twitter or facebook

holy shit dude are you actually serious with this
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Lavabug » 04 Nov 2018, 22:30

*enters conversation accusing someone of being alex jones-like*

*posts breitbart article unironically*

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no u, the left are the REAL fascists
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup » 05 Nov 2018, 18:25

i contacted the new york times about this thread and they thanked me and wrote the following article as a result

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/03/maga ... right.html

the takeaway is that between 2008 and 2017 71% of all the people killed by extremists in the us were killed by far-right extremists

i know, nyt and the aclu, ugh liberal garbage :ickface: but overall i’m sure this will be the final word anyone will have on the subject, on mabb and elsewhere
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Josh » 06 Nov 2018, 01:14

:hard-on bearer:
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 06 Nov 2018, 03:02

turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup wrote:i contacted the new york times about this thread and they thanked me and wrote the following article as a result

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/03/maga ... right.html

the takeaway is that between 2008 and 2017 71% of all the people killed by extremists in the us were killed by far-right extremists

i know, nyt and the aclu, ugh liberal garbage :ickface: but overall i’m sure this will be the final word anyone will have on the subject, on mabb and elsewhere


That was actually a really great, well written article. It's nice to see that there are still proper investigative journalist out there.

my father in law is retired US Customs officer (that subsequently became under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security after 9/11). He worked the docks in NYC, ports in and around Miami and even the boarder in El Paso. You'd think with a background like that he'd be ultra conservative - but no, not at all. I'm curious what his thoughts on said article and the overall issues are.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup » 06 Nov 2018, 05:17

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup wrote:i contacted the new york times about this thread and they thanked me and wrote the following article as a result

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/03/maga ... right.html

the takeaway is that between 2008 and 2017 71% of all the people killed by extremists in the us were killed by far-right extremists

i know, nyt and the aclu, ugh liberal garbage :ickface: but overall i’m sure this will be the final word anyone will have on the subject, on mabb and elsewhere


That was actually a really great, well written article. It's nice to see that there are still proper investigative journalist out there.


there is a shitload of great investigative journalists out there :necro: don’t believe the hype. people who compto the contrary either don’t read widely, don’t pay for journalism, or are shit readers
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » 06 Nov 2018, 06:12

oh I have no doubt that there are - it's that most of the are unemployed. :redneck:

I think we are started to see a resurgence though as some news publications try distance themselves from the usual clickbait bullshit that has come to dominate the news industry.
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup » 06 Nov 2018, 08:03

clickbait isn't news, it's advertising

the trouble is the audience, which can't distinguish between reporting and skulduggery, let alone separate good writing from bad
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby User » 06 Nov 2018, 10:59

US education system and silos and segregation
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Re: They caught The MAGA Bomber

Postby turd monsoon 2: low-pressure buildup » 06 Nov 2018, 15:36

don’t you shit on silos now
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