Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

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Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Akkush » 20 Mar 2019, 17:24

Hi!

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm a big Gateways to Annihilation fanboy, it's THE best album of all time for me, made me play the guitar.

I really want to understand way it sounds as it sounds, way is it soo different from the other albums, or from today's death metal.

I want to get a similar guitar tone also, I know what Trey used, but it would me more helpfull If you would describe the tone.
I mean it's a more gainy tone, more dark, or scooped tone, there's a certain spike in the EQ, or they used some new kind of recording trick, like double tracking etc...

Just want to know everything about this album from an audiophile perspective!

Thank you for your input!
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 20 Mar 2019, 19:39

Drums are digital (of course it's Pete drumming but not on an acoustic set).

Trey was/is using a RAT distortion.

I'll get uni in here to share his knowledge as he uses/used much of the same processing for his guitar sound.

We don't know what went on during the mixing and/or mastering process, so that's all just a guess.
But I think much of Trey's guitar sound has been figured out by some fans.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 20 Mar 2019, 23:51

He has stated numerous times that he used his same old rig and guitars. With addition of that RG7 with Synth.
I think the difference in sound lies more in the way it was recorded than anything else. Mics/mic placement etc. and postproduction.

Perhaps Bob (Taurianmixing) can shed some knowledge on that.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 21 Mar 2019, 00:40

I do know that he was using glass bowls around his cab mic and a windfan between the mic and the cab for solo’s. Just like during Formulas tracking.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 21 Mar 2019, 01:22

Also, this record was recorded and mixed at Morrisound studio’s on an SSL 4000 console. But I don’t think there is any info out there on microphones, pre-amps and other outboard used. There are so many variables in such a process that it’s impossible to know how they recorded and mixed the album, unless you were there and are vastly familiar with the process.

You can’t guess this stuff by ear.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Akkush » 21 Mar 2019, 02:51

Currantly I have a Peavey XXL head with a shitty Laney Klipp cab.
If I know right, Trey uses a Proco deucetone Rat on the CLEAN(!) channel of his Marshall, with Marshall 1960 cab with G25T-75 speakers.

So If I can get a Rat, or two, and get a cab with that speaker, I can get pretty close I guess.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Jeep Swenson_hero » 21 Mar 2019, 03:00

There's the rat 2, for 60 odd quid. Not sure if it would give the sound though, that's why I have held off getting one.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 21 Mar 2019, 03:57

Akkush wrote:Currantly I have a Peavey XXL head with a shitty Laney Klipp cab.
If I know right, Trey uses a Proco deucetone Rat on the CLEAN(!) channel of his Marshall, with Marshall 1960 cab with G25T-75 speakers.

So If I can get a Rat, or two, and get a cab with that speaker, I can get pretty close I guess.


Pretty much. Then also chase his guitars but so much of his tone is in his fingers. He doesn’t use a lot gain so most of the distortion comes from the way he plays and hits the strings. With Rutan that’s even more extreme, much less gain and all the crunch and distortion coming from Erik’s way of playing.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Taurean Mixing » 21 Mar 2019, 05:07

Pretty much as others have said, he's been using the same set up. Essentially it's the recordings and mixes that gave rise to variation in overall tonal vibe album to album. So it goes like this:

2 Marshall JCM 900 high gain dual reverb amps coupled to 1960 cabs.
In front of the amps create his basic tone using Rat distortion into a Rane EQ.
These aux effects are pre Rat: Univibe, MXR Phase 90, and a Morely Bad Horse
For leads, the Eventide H3000 is utilized in a stereo configuration (fx loop sends/return from the amps)
The pickups are usually custom with custom wiring. Single coil or humbuckers or combos of both with split coil tap and phase inversion switches.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 21 Mar 2019, 11:39

Akkush wrote:Currantly I have a Peavey XXL head with a shitty Laney Klipp cab.
If I know right, Trey uses a Proco deucetone Rat on the CLEAN(!) channel of his Marshall, with Marshall 1960 cab with G25T-75 speakers.

So If I can get a Rat, or two, and get a cab with that speaker, I can get pretty close I guess.

He uses Channel A but the preamp on full making it cruchy.
Rat set to boost not to distort, Rane set flat but with the level cranked into Channel A of the 900 DR. The speakers are the G12T-75 which come standard in the 1960B cabs.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Paste Human » 21 Mar 2019, 16:07

Did Erik play rhythm guitars on this album, or was it just solos? If I remember correctly he wrote God of the Forsaken so I'm guessing he at least played rhythm on that.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 21 Mar 2019, 17:50

:idea:
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Taurean Mixing » 22 Mar 2019, 02:36

Paste Human wrote:Did Erik play rhythm guitars on this album, or was it just solos? If I remember correctly he wrote God of the Forsaken so I'm guessing he at least played rhythm on that.

He told me in late 2000 that he played rhythm on one side and Trey on the other.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Akkush » 22 Mar 2019, 13:25

But at least we can say that it's not a typical modern sound? So not tight, not high gain.

And probably quit dark. Someone said on another forum that it sound like they used old strings and turned down the tone knob on the guitar XD
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 22 Mar 2019, 15:58

Haha well that’s probably not true.
I would almost say such a thing for Kingdoms but Gateways has a pretty cool guitar sound. It’s not super dark just slushy and slimey like Trey prefers it.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 22 Mar 2019, 16:39

Akkush wrote:But at least we can say that it's not a typical modern sound? So not tight, not high gain.

And probably quit dark. Someone said on another forum that it sound like they used old strings and turned down the tone knob on the guitar XD


Treys sound is not that dark. He uses the paf pro which has a mid peak. The Rat and Marshall with el34 aren't that dark either.. One of the secrets to the sauce are IMHO the gauges of his strings. He uses a fairly thin string and is tuned down a halve step. That also helps to create that sound. Just like the Iommie sound. Most of his guitars don't have a tone knob, and it definetly does't sound like a downturned tone knob.

His live sound isn't that dark either. A lot of the heavienes is a good FOH hard-on bearer.

On Gateways he uses the Uni a lot which has the Blaze-II pup which are kinda scooped so that might sound a bit different compared to the six string stuff.
I really think they used more ambient miking and different mikes next to the sm57. To achieve a more spacious sound.

In regard to Erik's tracking on G, As TM said, He stated himself he tracked his side of rhythm tracks and i think it is clearly audible. His picking style is very different. There is one chaos solo of which most everybody thinks it is Trey but is actually Erik's.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Akkush » 22 Mar 2019, 18:39

Thanks you the input.

Yes, I also thought that lower string tension also should effect the tone.

On Gateways, I hear that Erik plays a bit tighter, cleaner then Trey.

So you say, they probably pick quit hard to give more gain to their amp and get a more aggressive tone?
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 22 Mar 2019, 20:15

Akkush wrote:So you say, they probably pick quit hard to give more gain to their amp and get a more aggressive tone?


That’s correct. Erik’s action on his guitars is crazy high and he picks very hard, creating the distortion that way.

I do that too, just naturally. And I actually prefer that sound. It’s more dynamic and the distortion is more natural and musical.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 22 Mar 2019, 23:35

Akkush wrote: Trey uses a Proco deucetone Rat


Missed this one... He doesn't. He uses the R2DU which is basicly two RAT-2's in one rack space. He only uses one channel (the left one if you look at the lights.) He does not stack one channel into the other.

The deucetone is a way newer pedal and has different components.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Akkush » 23 Mar 2019, 02:17

Uni777 wrote:
Akkush wrote: Trey uses a Proco deucetone Rat


Missed this one... He doesn't. He uses the R2DU which is basicly two RAT-2's in one rack space. He only uses one channel (the left one if you look at the lights.) He does not stack one channel into the other.

The deucetone is a way newer pedal and has different components.



Oh thanks, that's good news, that means it's enough to buy one RAT then :lol:

I thought the recj version and the Deucetone is the same thing.
I read on another forum that he boosts one with the other, liers...
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 23 Mar 2019, 02:56

He doesn't uses the Rane EQ anymore btw. He now uses the Kerry King EQ by Dunlop because of it's stereo outputs. either output goes into one of his 900 heads.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 23 Mar 2019, 03:02

Akkush wrote:I read on another forum that he boosts one with the other, liers...

This is from the man himself:

Guitars:
Too many to list but mainly use my custom InstaGIB Ironbird, custom Starbody and Charvel Dinky Strat for 6 string stuff and my oldschool Ibanez Universe guitars for the 7 string stuff.
Tunings:
6 string guitars at D#
7 string guitars at A#

Pickups:
Always passive pickups. Dimarzio PAF Pro for 6 string and the Dimarzio Blaze for 7 string.

Amps & Cabinets:
Early 1990s Marshall 900 100 watt amps with EL34 tubes and the built in FX loops running in stereo. Classic 1960s cabs with the 75 watt speakers.

Effects:
Oldschool Eventide H3000 rack fx unit, (he also used a TC electronics Gmayor)
Rack mount Rat R2DU
MXR EQ
Univibe via Rockman Midi Octopus
ART Ultrafoot midi controller
Morley Wah
MXR Flanger (used to be an old Washburn one)
MXR Phase 90

Strings:
GHS 46 – 9 and adding a 56 for the 7 string guitars

Picks:
Dunlop Tortex 1.14 full size
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 23 Mar 2019, 13:04

:xx:
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby M.Bison » 23 Mar 2019, 15:20

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember Trey stating for Gateways they switched out the EL34's for 6L6's?
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby iamgoat » 23 Mar 2019, 15:57

Aren’t those pre and amp tubes? :huh:
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 23 Mar 2019, 16:52

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember Trey stating for Gateways they switched out the EL34's for 6L6's?


Never heard him say that. I do remember him stating specifically he uses the 900's with EL34 as some of them were tubed with 5881 (6L6) due to the EL34 not being avaliable for a while.

Aren’t those pre and amp tubes? :huh:


Both EL34 and 6L6 (also known as 5881) are output tubes. The pre-amp tubes are some version of the 12AX7 / ECC83 Tube Types.

Mine came with the 5881. I once tried swithing them but did not notice that much of a difference. It still sounded like a marshall. I'm back to the JJ 6L6 in them as my JCM2000 DSL100 has the EL34's and i figured it would be nice to have different flavours.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby M.Bison » 24 Mar 2019, 03:15

Uni777 wrote:
I might be wrong, but I seem to remember Trey stating for Gateways they switched out the EL34's for 6L6's?


Never heard him say that. I do remember him stating specifically he uses the 900's with EL34 as some of them were tubed with 5881 (6L6) due to the EL34 not being avaliable for a while.

Well the only evidence I could find to back me up is from an old interview:
MU: Did you take a different approach toward your playing this time around ?
TA: I don't know. Not really. A lot of it's because of a different guitar tone that turned out from different tubes and amps.

Makes me wonder if I just attached that meaning ha :santa:
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 24 Mar 2019, 14:30

Makes me wonder if I just attached that meaning ha :santa:


Wel he does say different tubes and amps there.. but he is pretty vague. Did he use a different amp which had different tubes, did he stay with marshalls or a different brand..?

Which interview was that? I'd like to read it..
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 24 Mar 2019, 14:58

Found it:

MU: Did you take a different approach toward your playing this time around ?
TA: I don't know. Not really. A lot of it's because of a different guitar tone that turned out from different tubes and amps. The way that I used ambient mics. Then the drums - being acoustic toms - the sound of that. The drummming on Gateways is all triggered stuff. So, all the sounds are real nice little, tight, compact sounds. They're in and out, and they don't leave a bunch of extra air laying around. The snare is really perky and bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. It's not some big sound that covers up other stuff. When the leads come in, they get a lot of space. But, no lead has ever been as big as the lead in 'Nothing Is Not'. That lead was the biggest. That's because I used this special micing technique called the anti vacuum culture. It basically makes the guitar sound like you're outside of a big coliseum in the parking lot listening someone play guitar inside going through all this big PA's. It's all coming through the walls, so all you hear is the body and the size, but not the presence. So, when that lead comes in on 'Nothing Is Not' it almost suffocates everything because it's got more body than presence. It's funny.


Well then... Back to the drawing board 'till we find out what amps and if they were added in the doubled track or used for all tracking..
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby M.Bison » 24 Mar 2019, 14:59

Uni777 wrote:
Makes me wonder if I just attached that meaning ha :santa:


Wel he does say different tubes and amps there.. but he is pretty vague. Did he use a different amp which had different tubes, did he stay with marshalls or a different brand..?

Which interview was that? I'd like to read it..

http://angemorbide.free.fr/interview32.html
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby M.Bison » 24 Mar 2019, 15:01

Damn, that was weird timing ha.

Insane that this is nearly 20 years ago...? :alien:

I wonder if Trey can even remember details like that himself these days :redneck:
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Uni777 » 24 Mar 2019, 15:28

:huh: :mmno:

Well in this interview he contradicts the above..

When you were recording your new album, did you have to improvise some things in the studio concerning the songs on it, equipments for the actual recording situation and stuff like that?

I pretty much used the same guitar sound that I´ve always used. Just different cabinet, speaker - like my speaker´s got kinda old, so I got some new speakers. But still the same, mainly the same rig, equipments as any of the other albums. Drums... we planned on using what we used which was gonna be all tricky drums this time without acoustic drums. A little bit of an acoustic snare - we did improvise on the actual snare drum and rented a new one that we used and liked the best. When I do my guitar solos, I do them in my house as I have a little studio there. And I improvise all my solos. Every solo that I played on the album, I really wanted to capture the feeling without it being thought-out. Almost closing the eyes and just playing and feeling the moment and record, y´know what I mean? As opposed to planning, there wasn´t a lot of planning on the solos.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby arborist shrub tarkington » 26 Mar 2019, 18:15

metal
Hitoshura wrote:i am still extraordinarily happy with the blood pods though
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby rhino » 06 Apr 2019, 00:09

Akkush, what's up man?

How's sades brother bill?
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Hitoshura » 06 Apr 2019, 11:03

M.Bison wrote:Damn, that was weird timing ha.

Insane that this is nearly 20 years ago...? :alien:


i was just thinking about this recently. still remember the night i bought gateways on CD in senior year of high school, it was at a borders and my car broke down trying to leave. very heavy nostalgia for this and final fantasy IX, both of which i was listening to/playing at the same time. and both of which still seem like 'new-school' entries in their respective arenas despite coming out more than half a lifetime ago.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby arborist shrub tarkington » 07 Apr 2019, 17:44

the tone is metal
Hitoshura wrote:i am still extraordinarily happy with the blood pods though
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Jeep Swenson_hero » 07 Apr 2019, 19:54

I don't like your tone.
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Re: Describe me the tone of Gateways album please!

Postby Josh » 10 Apr 2019, 13:17

gateways was my first death metal album in 2001. along with the crowns crowned in terror :beerbang:

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