Roe vs Wade is dead and Republicans killed it

[Ninny]

Next thing men won't be allowed to shave and your girls will have to wear bags over their heads

[droidspawn]

We are so fucked. At least I’m 90 only mins from the Canadian border.

[Noyka]

Ya’ll quit being dramatic abortion isn’t going away. If a statevdoes outlaw it (I doubt it) there will be hell to pay. It just puts more power in the people’s hands not in the feds.

I am concerned we will see more fuckups like in Texas though which, fyi, happened with roe. Roe v wade was kinda pointless honestly.

[Mesarthim]

Canada should invade Minnesota and claim it as part of their territory. a lot of people here already act like we're Canada jr.

[Mesarthim]

Ya’ll quit being dramatic abortion isn’t going away. If a statevdoes outlaw it (I doubt it) there will be hell to pay. It just puts more power in the people’s hands not in the feds.

I am concerned we will see more fuckups like in Texas though which, fyi, happened with roe. Roe v wade was kinda pointless honestly.

ah yes, the old state rights argument. great in theory, not so much in practice.

my problem is where does this regression end?

Separation of church and state? gone. (see the recent ruling on funding religious schools with taxes)
Abortion rights? gone.
Voting rights? continuing to erode, soon to be gone.
Same-sex marriage? next on the chopping block.
Contraception rights? next on the chopping block.
Interracial marriage? oh you better believe this will be on the agenda soon enough.

Do you think you're safe because you support some or all of this? Think again - your time will come as well.

[Noyka]

Funny thing with voting rights there is an increase in voting across all demographics. If people feel that our elections are unsafe (for the record I do not feel there was fraud in 2020) you have to calm them down for our system to be effective. We can debate ids but i feel giving free access to ids would help give a happy medium.

I think you, like many, have valid concerns but take it a lot further especially with the marriage stuff.

I feel roe v was poorly written and should be rethought. The ruling strictly says abortion only which helps a lot i think.

For the record i am very much pro choice

[jawn galliano]

iirc 22ish states automatically outlawed abortion with the overturning of roe, they all had trigger laws on the books. this isn't some hypothetical!

anyway, give dems credit - even in the most immediate sense, they knew this was going to happen, and overwhelmingly voted to increase security for the supreme court. they are telling you they knew this decision was coming, and that it was important the court be protected in order to do so safely!

[Mesarthim]

the thing with abortion is this - some states will allow it and some won't. you have some states that will criminalize you if you travel to another to have an abortion (this is downright terrifying for multiple reasons). many people who get abortions get them for legitimate medical reasons, while others simply know they cannot afford to have a baby (or another) - and in that case traveling to another state may be a substantial financial burden for them to the point that they may have a baby that they legitimate do not want (have you ever known someone who resented their kids? hello broken home!)

insofar as voting is concerned -

I think that voting should be made as easy as possible - automatically registered to vote when you turn 18, early voting, mail in voting, multiple in person polling locations, and election day itself really should be a national holiday.
If there ever is fraud either at the personal level (ie, voting more than once in the same election) or actual voter fraud at the local / state level - then they should be prosecuted with the maximum extent of the law.

the thing that pisses me off the most about 2020 was there was multiple accusations of fraud and yet there has been zero proof. even sympathetic judges who would probably have moved forward had to toss out cases because there was never any proof to justify the case. the people who purported these lies need to be held accountable as well.

[Mesarthim]

iirc 22ish states automatically outlawed abortion with the overturning of roe, they all had trigger laws on the books. this isn't some hypothetical!

anyway, give dems credit - even in the most immediate sense, they knew this was going to happen, and overwhelmingly voted to increase security for the supreme court. they are telling you they knew this decision was coming, and that it was important the court be protected in order to do so safely!

I know and understand why you often like to argue that Both Sides Are Bad and believe me, democrats are no saints either in that regard.
But for many at this point however, because this is the system we have - it often comes down to quite literally the lesser of the two evils.
Perhaps someday we'll have something better - but the way things are going I am not sure we'll live long enough to see it.

[Paste Human]

the thing with abortion is this - some states will allow it and some won't. you have some states that will criminalize you if you travel to another to have an abortion (this is downright terrifying for multiple reasons). many people who get abortions get them for legitimate medical reasons, while others simply know they cannot afford to have a baby (or another) - and in that case traveling to another state may be a substantial financial burden for them to the point that they may have a baby that they legitimate do not want (have you ever known someone who resented their kids? hello broken home!)

insofar as voting is concerned -

I think that voting should be made as easy as possible - automatically registered to vote when you turn 18, early voting, mail in voting, multiple in person polling locations, and election day itself really should be a national holiday.
If there ever is fraud either at the personal level (ie, voting more than once in the same election) or actual voter fraud at the local / state level - then they should be prosecuted with the maximum extent of the law.

the thing that pisses me off the most about 2020 was there was multiple accusations of fraud and yet there has been zero proof. even sympathetic judges who would probably have moved forward had to toss out cases because there was never any proof to justify the case. the people who purported these lies need to be held accountable as well.

I think unborn fetuses should automatically be registered to vote and have the right to cross state lines in order to protest for their right for life while given their god given right to weigh in on fraudulent election claims. Session adjourned

[Paste Human]

If they can take this away, they can take so much more away as far as personal freedoms go. Which is totally in line with Qpublicans and their "rules for thee, not for me" rhetoric.

I don't have a real opinion on this overall matter, but I also honestly don't understand what you mean by this statement.

[Mesarthim]

If they can take this away, they can take so much more away as far as personal freedoms go. Which is totally in line with Qpublicans and their "rules for thee, not for me" rhetoric.

I don't have a real opinion on this overall matter, but I also honestly don't understand what you mean by this statement.

the extremist at the helm of the republican party have often been caught doing exactly what they are accusing others of doing (projection) and basically want accountability and laws for others, but not themselves (it's okay/different when we do it!). in other words, they are hypocrites. Qpublicans is a reference to Qanon - an online extremist organization which spread conspiracy theories like wildfire the last several years and for whatever god damn reason republicans and republican leadership ate up and actually believed to the point that many of these conspiracy theories have become mainstream beliefs despite having no basis in reality.

[jawn galliano]

It's a trial run to see what they can get away with. Controlling women's bodies is just an "easy" step one.

They'll scream for abortion to be illegal, except for when they need one. They'll say gay people are a sin, and then get caught in a gay club. They'll say that interracial marriage is unconstitutional, but will be banging ladies of color on the side.

Basically they want to have their cake, everyone else's cake, and to eat it too.

in his concurrence, clarence thomas more or less explicitly called to have cases sent up so that they can overturn obergefell, griswold and lawrence. i have a sneaking suspicion they're not gonna stop there!

[Paste Human]

If they can take this away, they can take so much more away as far as personal freedoms go. Which is totally in line with Qpublicans and their "rules for thee, not for me" rhetoric.

I don't have a real opinion on this overall matter, but I also honestly don't understand what you mean by this statement.

the extremist at the helm of the republican party have often been caught doing exactly what they are accusing others of doing (projection) and basically want accountability and laws for others, but not themselves (it's okay/different when we do it!). in other words, they are hypocrites. Qpublicans is a reference to Qanon - an online extremist organization which spread conspiracy theories like wildfire the last several years and for whatever god damn reason republicans and republican leadership ate up and actually believed to the point that many of these conspiracy theories have become mainstream beliefs despite having no basis in reality.

OK then. Until now I've never heard of the Qpublicans thing, and for good reason: I don't care about U.S. partisan politics. It's a waste of time. Just nudging policy a bit from one side to the other over trivial distracting issues while on the whole it's headed toward an obvious fucked up destination for all but a few. Not that a political system of any kind of doomed, but this one sure seems to be.

Might be time to rekindle Kinney, MN

[Noyka]

the thing with abortion is this - some states will allow it and some won't. you have some states that will criminalize you if you travel to another to have an abortion (this is downright terrifying for multiple reasons). many people who get abortions get them for legitimate medical reasons, while others simply know they cannot afford to have a baby (or another) - and in that case traveling to another state may be a substantial financial burden for them to the point that they may have a baby that they legitimate do not want (have you ever known someone who resented their kids? hello broken home!)

insofar as voting is concerned -

I think that voting should be made as easy as possible - automatically registered to vote when you turn 18, early voting, mail in voting, multiple in person polling locations, and election day itself really should be a national holiday.
If there ever is fraud either at the personal level (ie, voting more than once in the same election) or actual voter fraud at the local / state level - then they should be prosecuted with the maximum extent of the law.

the thing that pisses me off the most about 2020 was there was multiple accusations of fraud and yet there has been zero proof. even sympathetic judges who would probably have moved forward had to toss out cases because there was never any proof to justify the case. the people who purported these lies need to be held accountable as well.

I agree with you aboyt 2020

The thing i fear is far right violence which is why we need to calm folks while we can. Voter id is the easiest and least controversial compromise. Giving ids fir free would make it almost non controversial.

[Noyka]

Ya’ll quit being dramatic abortion isn’t going away. If a statevdoes outlaw it (I doubt it) there will be hell to pay. It just puts more power in the people’s hands not in the feds.

I am concerned we will see more fuckups like in Texas though which, fyi, happened with roe. Roe v wade was kinda pointless honestly.

If they can take this away, they can take so much more away as far as personal freedoms go. Which is totally in line with Qpublicans and their "rules for thee, not for me" rhetoric. Everyone should be very angry and concerned over this decision.

Not to mention there's a seditionist in SCOTUS and we continue to let him have a say in things.

I get the slippery slope argument and i am wary of it but from what i understand most of the 22 states are regulating jot flat out banning. I am nervous of ignorant laws like Texas’s but again this happened with roe in place. If i am wrong i will absolutely admit it.

[Mesarthim]

I just happen to be off on today when all this shit happened - I am already 6 beers in.

will probably go to a counter-protest this evening (these "pro-life" doofuses are holding a celebration outside the state capitol / federal buildings today).

trying to think of some good slogans to put on signs:

"for a bunch of people that love to yammer on about Freedom, you sure hate it with a passion"

"the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing conservative christians they were doing the right thing"

[droidspawn]

Jerome has it. It will disproportionately affect the poor/middle class like everything else. Fascist fucking pigs.

[Noyka]

But what does "regulating" in this instance mean? Having to sit in front of a tribunal of (probably) men who will more than likely make the party in question feel like a criminal, then say no anyway and claim some nonsensical religious viewpoint that's not even in the bible as their reasoning?

This will affect so many poor people in rural Murica, it's crazy.

I think it means setting limits. I am fine with limits as long as there are medical exceptions. I find texas repugnant because there is no exception for things like anacephaly which you don’t fond out about week 16. I agree no medical procedure should be used as birth control but what right wingers fail to understand is abortion is rarely if ever used as birth control unless contraception fails or there isn’t access.

I do not understand the desire to limit both abortion and contraception. I am a product of religious extremism regarding sex ed and can attest being ignorant and almost fearful of such things is harmful. Sex ed and contraception are not perverse they’re just parts of life.

[Verbal]

what is the justification for abortion?

[Mesarthim]

what is the justification for abortion?

didn't you go to med school? are you just shit posting at this point?

[Verbal]

what is the justification for abortion?

didn't you go to med school? are you just shit posting at this point?

im not expressing an opinion one way or another. ive just never heard anyone give an informed, honest, and logically consistent argument that convincingly justifies it

[Verbal]

also, isnt this just a ruling at the national level which just makes it now to be decided at the state level? so the states that want it, have it. and the ones that dont, dont. and if someone wants an abortion, they might have to travel to a different state. is there something im missing?

[Noyka]

The justification is if contraception fails, rape, incest, inhury to mother. Think if it this way you find you have an anacephalic baby (very rare i know) how traumatizing would it be to give birth to a still born, to carry around a still born. It’d be inhumane to force that.

[Verbal]

are you saying these are the only cases it should be allowed?

what i am curious about is, for people who think abortion is ok, is in what circumstances exactly is it ok, and why?

it is obviously fine in case of anencephaly

[Paste Human]

I could be wrong but I'm guessing the vast majority of cases are an unexpected pregnancy that would be an inconvenience if not aborted.

[Verbal]

I could be wrong but I'm guessing the vast majority of cases are an unexpected pregnancy that would be an inconvenience if not aborted.

agree

[jawn galliano]

why does someone need to present a case that you deem logically consistent, informed, honest and convincing before they can get an abortion?

it's none of my business and it certainly isn't any of yours either

[jawn galliano]

da_rational_catholic has some Concerns and the abortions cannot continue until they have been Addressed

all you pregnant bitches, prepare to test thineselves on the field of DEBATE. you may proceed only once you have proven your mettle in the marketplace of ideas

[Noyka]

I just listed ones I have heard from women over the years. There is a reason most in healthcare are more pro choice than life. Most do view it as a meducal procedure, which it is.

Fyi Missouri just outright banned abortion so fuck them.

[Noyka]

why does someone need to present a case that you deem logically consistent, informed, honest and convincing before they can get an abortion?

it's none of my business and it certainly isn't any of yours either

My issue here there is a point where its two lives not one. You cannot deny at 20 weeks thats a viable fetus for instance. Early term 100% agree as most americans do. The disagreements come with late term abortion for the most part.

Fetal rights are a thing, people gave been convicted of murder for killing fetuses in pregnant women.

What disgusts me is people saying special needs kids shouldn’t exist and use them as a reason for abortion. That is non of their goddamn business and gives me eugenics vibes.

I am pro choice but there are ethical concerns.

[jawn galliano]

I just listed ones I have heard from women over the years. There is a reason most in healthcare are more pro choice than life. Most do view it as a meducal procedure, which it is.

Fyi Missouri just outright banned abortion so fuck them.

no guff to you, it's a perfectly reasonable illustration that there are many scenarios you can rattle off the top of your head where abortion is the only sensible and correct choice. and obviously there are many, many more scenarios that you or i or anyone else probably couldn't! which is why, in my view, it's absurd to craft some requirement that it be allowed only under XYZ set of circumstances, because that will inevitably exclude those who ought to be able to get one. when you start down the road of creating special conditions, it just leads to more and more restrictions until it's effectively banned outright, which is precisely where we've wound up.

does leaving it up to individual choice mean that some abortions will be obtained under circumstances we might not individually approve of? sure, absolutely. but ultimately that's none of my business and not my problem.

[Noyka]

I am only wary when it comes to late term because science shows the fetus feels pain. It is basically torture. This is why i feel late term should be rare and only for medical reasons. Most of them already are anyways.

[vO)))id]

Next thing men won't be allowed to shave and your girls will have to wear bags over their heads

As they should!

[vO)))id]

I just listed ones I have heard from women over the years. There is a reason most in healthcare are more pro choice than life. Most do view it as a meducal procedure, which it is.

Fyi Missouri just outright banned abortion so fuck them.

no guff to you, it's a perfectly reasonable illustration that there are many scenarios you can rattle off the top of your head where abortion is the only sensible and correct choice. and obviously there are many, many more scenarios that you or i or anyone else probably couldn't! which is why, in my view, it's absurd to craft some requirement that it be allowed only under XYZ set of circumstances, because that will inevitably exclude those who ought to be able to get one. when you start down the road of creating special conditions, it just leads to more and more restrictions until it's effectively banned outright, which is precisely where we've wound up.

does leaving it up to individual choice mean that some abortions will be obtained under circumstances we might not individually approve of? sure, absolutely. but ultimately that's none of my business and not my problem.

Agreed completely.

I will also add that banning abortions won't stop them.
They will still be done but in very dangerous and tragic ways.

[jawn galliano]

also very correct! criminalizing abortions just means more dead women! it's unbelievably bad!

[Verbal]

why does someone need to present a case that you deem logically consistent, informed, honest and convincing before they can get an abortion?

it's none of my business and it certainly isn't any of yours either

i am pointing out that i have never heard such an argument from anyone. so when people indicate they are pro abortion i typically ask under what circumstances they are in favor of it, and why. if someone could actually provide such an argument, maybe i would be convinced. i dont know what i think about the issue. ive spent a lot of time thinking about it. it is complicated. i have listened to and read a lot from both sides. super advocates for, based on my experience, tend to parrot ignorant hysterical propaganda, and dishonestly reframe the issue

[Ninny]

For financial reasons, a child can be hard to support
Fear of the future, climate change
Emotional reasons, not being up to the challenge of raising a child
A lack of prospects for the child
The toll childbirth takes on the body
A chance of hereditary disease
No interest in having a family
Pregnancy can interfere with other ambitions, study or career

[Ninny]

Being content with the current size of the family
A casual look on conception
Overpopulation, too many humans for one planet
A wish to travel or emigrate
Doubt about your partner
Conception at the wrong moment in life, too early or too late
Pregnancy with someone else than your partner

[Verbal]

do you think if people said any of those reasons to justify killing their kids up to the age of one year, it would be ok?

[Ninny]

Maybe a chance of hereditary disease. But abortion is not the same as killing a kid

[Verbal]

Maybe a chance of hereditary disease. But abortion is not the same as killing a kid

i think this issue is tricky, but there are some objective facts: once the sperm fertilises the egg, it is a distinct member of the human species, which prior to that didnt exist. the cell is not in the same category as a skin cell or a liver cell. it is a distinct human. an entire organism. this is biological fact, not religious superstition. there is then a continuous spectrum of development from this point throughout childhood. the first 9 months typically in utero. these are the facts. denying this is like denying the earth is round. this doesnt stop being true just because it is inconvenient

i think most people, including most proabortion people, would think pretty much any of the typical arguments that are used to justify abortion would not justify killing a baby once it is born. so how could it be then justified right before birth? and how far back from birth should people go before it is ok? whatever criteria you have, and justification you have for that criteria, then can you consistently apply it to people after birth in a way you are ok with? once all this is somehow established, then how do we weigh the rights of the unborn human against the rights of the mother?

i dont have satisfactory answers myself, despite having thought about it a lot. this is why i ask people when they start expressing strong opinions on it

i genuinely would like to hear a carefully thought out point of view on this. someone who actually honestly looks at the objective facts, and then trying to come up with a logically consistent argument. as long as they dont do things such as:
1. start playing word games like "maybe it is a human, but i dont consider it a person", or "it is not a human/person, it is an embryo/fetus". this is worse than useless. it is like asking someone to justify their point of view that killing humans up to the age of two is ok, and their answer is "it might be human, but i dont consider it a person", or "it is not a human/person, it is a toddler". such people are (intentionally or unintentionally) avoiding articulating an actual argument by playing word games.
2. dishonestly misrepresent the issue as if it is as simple as pregnancy being a particular form of infectious disease or cancer that society is demanding women shouldnt be treated for

[vO)))id]

Another factor is rape.
It happens, women get pregnant and want an abortion.
It's extremely traumatic already and an abortion is not some easy procedure. I cannot fully grasp this or truly understand what it must feel like since I am a male, but I personally know a woman who was in such a situation and by law, had to wait 5 days until she could get the abortion. Those 5 days were hell.

[Corpsepyre]

What a fucking backwards ass country. it's astonishing.

[jawn galliano]

in hindsight we probably should've wiped out the vatican back during the war. not that the option was ever on the table. but it would've been very convenient and productive to have done so at the time!

[Verbal]

the way some americans cling to their constitution is similar to how some religious nuts cling to their bible

[jawn galliano]

the united states constitution can cling to my dick

[Verbal]

aw gay

[jawn galliano]

i don't think that's true at all, but what if it were. what's wrong with that "stroke me, for i wish to orgasm"

[Verbal]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rLGCnusTaN0