To the Victor- one of the best solos possibly ever recorded?

LAVAGOD · Post by **LAVAGOD** » 29 May 2011, 09:39

Treys solo is absolutely beautiful. also notice right after the solos (2:45) the rhythm sounds really bassy low and non-mid then right at about 3:08 it sounds like someone took the MID knob and turned it up. is this a studio mistake? sounds really obvious.

bob_here · Post by **bob_here** » 29 May 2011, 11:29

What you're hearing is psychoacoustic: that a frequency band diminishes or is reduced the ear may decipher has an increase in countering frequency bands.

The reason that happened here is because Steve moves to the higher octaves to accompany that tremelo/blast part. The stray from the lower, more typical registry for the bass parts into the higher created that perception of a decrease in bass. So in this case the perceived increase of mid's.

jawn galliano · Post by **jawn galliano** » 29 May 2011, 12:09

i know fuck all about psychoacoustics, but in basic auditory perception, there's an audibility curve; we've less sensitive to low frequencies so they require more amplitude to be perceptible, whereas we're a lot more sensitive to midrange frequencies, making them detectable at much lower volumes. so if the levels are held constant, moving from the bass registers into the midrange should produce an apparent amplitude difference. i think, anyway

is that along the lines of what you're referring to, TM? i could be way off, as that typically applies to perception thresholds. i'm not sure if the effect is as pronounced once you pass that threshold, though

Drum Solo · Post by **Drum Solo** » 29 May 2011, 12:24

I'm not wild about the solo, but that song is much better than I remembered it being. Did they ever play it live?

so if the levels are held constant, moving from the bass registers into the midrange should produce an apparent amplitude difference. i think, anyway.

I know the volume seems to increases in my car when I turn the treble up. I do this a lot when the disc changes from death to black metal.

vO)))id · Post by **vO)))id** » 29 May 2011, 14:02

They played it during the Gateways tour yes

Hallucinating dead · Post by **Hallucinating dead** » 29 May 2011, 15:33

My favorite is invocation of continual one

RitesOfPossession · Post by **RitesOfPossession** » 29 May 2011, 16:19

I'm actually not a huge fan of this solo, or any of Trey's solos on this album for that matter. My favourite solo on Gateways is probably Erik's solo in God Of The Forsaken. I also like some of Trey's tapping lead lines in I.

Hallucinating dead · Post by **Hallucinating dead** » 29 May 2011, 16:25

[quote name="DarkSurgeon"]I'm actually not a huge fan of this solo, or any of Trey's solos on this album for that matter. My favourite solo on Gateways is probably Erik's solo in God Of The Forsaken. I also like some of Trey's tapping lead lines in I.[/quote]

Imo, summoning and secured imitations has great solos. Not skill wise maybe, but they have lots of feelings in them.

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 29 May 2011, 16:50

[quote name="DarkSurgeon"]I'm actually not a huge fan of this solo, or any of Trey's solos on this album for that matter. My favourite solo on Gateways is probably Erik's solo in God Of The Forsaken. I also like some of Trey's tapping lead lines in I.[/quote]

I tend to agree with this. IMHO Treys solo's really became unique on C and peaked on D and FFttF. I'd love to hear some LOL from C.

Those Insane Gods · Post by **Those Insane Gods** » 29 May 2011, 17:10

[quote name="uni777"]
[quote name="DarkSurgeon"]I'm actually not a huge fan of this solo, or any of Trey's solos on this album for that matter. My favourite solo on Gateways is probably Erik's solo in God Of The Forsaken. I also like some of Trey's tapping lead lines in I.[/quote]

I tend to agree with this. IMHO Treys solo's really became unique on C and peaked on D and FFttF. I'd love to hear some LOL from C.[/quote]

I tend to agree with this. The solo's on Illud seem to be more in line with his C and D work. More structured compared to G and H.

RitesOfPossession · Post by **RitesOfPossession** » 29 May 2011, 17:19

[quote name="WhereTheSlimeLives"]
[quote name="uni777"]
[quote name="DarkSurgeon"]I'm actually not a huge fan of this solo, or any of Trey's solos on this album for that matter. My favourite solo on Gateways is probably Erik's solo in God Of The Forsaken. I also like some of Trey's tapping lead lines in I.[/quote]

I tend to agree with this. IMHO Treys solo's really became unique on C and peaked on D and FFttF. I'd love to hear some LOL from C.[/quote]

I tend to agree with this. The solo's on Illud seem to be more in line with his C and D work. More structured compared to G and H.[/quote]

I think his solos on H went a long way to getting back on the track of where he left off with Formulas. His solos on G were a bit too aimless and without direction and also a bit too "bluesy" for me.

Phantoon · Post by **Phantoon** » 29 May 2011, 18:21

I rather like all the solos on Gateways. Some of them seem a bit forgettable at times and just seem to be there for necessity. Favourite solos would be both Summoning redemption's, To the victor's, All three solos on At one with nothing are fantastic, I's solo is done by Eric by the sounds of it and has a domination feel to it. Finally God of the forsaken's is beautiful. Secured limitations solo can be hard to get into at times. I can't remember the Ageless still I am ones, they probably don't sit that well with me then. I think this can be a good introductory album for people getting into death metal.

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 29 May 2011, 18:25

God of the forsaken is all Erik. The chaos one too.

Phantoon · Post by **Phantoon** » 29 May 2011, 18:34

O yeah, Erik's solo style is unmistakable

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 29 May 2011, 18:35

bob_here · Post by **bob_here** » 29 May 2011, 20:13

@ Derek Waters Yes the audibility curve, in which from it the equal-loudness contour is established, plays somewhat of a role in this. With a mixed instrument, you will most likely not get the full effect of this however. In essence it's like dealing with the equal-loudness contour in which ironically the frequency range amplitudes are, "on paper", not equal but comes across sonically as equal. So what we are left with in creating what we hear on this recording is the perception of increased mid's because of the decrease of low's which regardless of equal amplitude or equal contoured amplitude, you will notice the effect. Oh, incidentally, it's also true the other way around too if we were to reduce high's or mid's.

@ Drum Solo Sure, that's under this pyschoacoustic umbrella AND what Derek Waters mentioned about increased sensitivity to mid range frequencies. Especially between 2 to 4 Khz. Typically in a car stereo, you are dealing with shelving filters that will boost or from a pivot frequency and anything above that frequency. Using a high shelf, which is an increase in transient perception, "clarity", and upper harmonics, coupled with this increased sensitivity conveys itself as "louder" without necessarily increasing the total amplitude.

LAVAGOD · Post by **LAVAGOD** » 29 May 2011, 20:24

It's not like it get less gassy it literally sounds like the mids are just boosted on to the victor the spoils listen to it at about 2:45 up to 3:10 at 3:10 the tone changes

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 29 May 2011, 20:43

No it does not. The bassguitar part changes.

bob_here · Post by **bob_here** » 29 May 2011, 20:50

Yup that's right, it's the bass guitar switching to higher registries. If we go exactly off the time line of the CD, the bass line does this change from 2:48 until the change at 3:04 and it drops back down to "typical" octaves.

shubniggurath · Post by **shubniggurath** » 29 May 2011, 22:32

[quote name="TranscendingMusic"]Yup that's right, it's the bass guitar switching to higher registries. If we go exactly off the time line of the CD, the bass line does this change from 2:48 until the change at 3:04 and it drops back down to "typical" octaves.[/quote]

Gotta love the nonlinear response of the ear! Makes for interesting challenges, as well as opportunities.

LAVAGOD · Post by **LAVAGOD** » 30 May 2011, 00:00

the bass makes that big of a difference in guitar sounds? because the guitars get louder and bigger. take a band like cannibal corpse where alex's bass is all over the recordings, if theres a break or a rhythm fill of something and then alex joins in its not like the guitar sound changes it just sounds like guitar with a bass behind it. it sounds seperate from the bass, more like guitar tone. i dont understand how the bass would change the guitar tone?

bob_here · Post by **bob_here** » 30 May 2011, 00:34

[quote name="LAVAGOD"]the bass makes that big of a difference in guitar sounds? because the guitars get louder and bigger. take a band like cannibal corpse where alex's bass is all over the recordings, if theres a break or a rhythm fill of something and then alex joins in its not like the guitar sound changes it just sounds like guitar with a bass behind it. it sounds seperate from the bass, more like guitar tone. i dont understand how the bass would change the guitar tone?

[/quote]

Absolutely it does. The whole craft of mixing revolves around the concept of temporal masking, frequency support, harmonic and fundamental relationships. It's an art form in itself being able to balance sounds together allowing each to compensate or support or mask something else. This is all part of audio science and something very well known and implemented - even as slimegod points out - in manipulating audio.

LAVAGOD · Post by **LAVAGOD** » 30 May 2011, 00:54

This forum is so freakin badass!!

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 30 May 2011, 01:00

yep, for the most part when you hear HUGE guitar sound, that is actually bass+guitar. One of the dogmas in metal ae

The word you seek in this thread is also contrast. You make this thing small, so that the next one would appear as big. That is also the reason why most fruital bands are boring as fuck - no contrast in there, while Suffocation are fucking kings for the exact same reason. On of the reasons why MA are the champions too

Hallucinating dead · Post by **Hallucinating dead** » 30 May 2011, 01:02

Bass i meant to support guitar tone, to gives the sound the real strength. Thats one reason i don't like cannibal corpse.

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 30 May 2011, 01:04

^^you cannot possibly listen to Evisceration Plague and dare to say that

HUGE. MASSIVE. One of the biggest sounding records in death metal ever. Rutan's finest

^_____________^ · Post by **^_____________^** » 30 May 2011, 01:06

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't all of this have something to do with the odd mixing of the vocals on Darkthrone's Panzerfaust album?

[youtube]DvrSnmSDHQY[/youtube]

When Nocturno Culto starts singing, the instruments seem to become quieter.

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 30 May 2011, 01:08

yep, for the most part when you hear HUGE guitar sound, that is actually bass+guitar. One of the dogmas in metal ae

The word you seek in this thread is also contrast. You make this thing small, so that the next one would appear as big. That is also the reason why most fruital bands are boring as fuck - no contrast in there, while Suffocation are fucking kings for the exact same reason. On of the reasons why MA are the champions too

Right, in a lot of music there is a lot of dynamics going on.. clean passages, more laid back stuff etc. Deathmetal is limited in regard to those dynamics, so it a real challenge to keep the mix breathing. Subtle tempo changes are very helpfull in that respect.

A lot of guitar players have too much low end going on. We have the bassplayer for that. Also the idiotic amounts of gain some players use are kinda ridiculous. On your own you sound great. But you get lost in the mix and you mush up the band.

play with a subtle amount of gain, which is a bitch with some of the DM techniques, and you'll sound way heavier.

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 30 May 2011, 01:12

^^That last remark is what I have learned long, long time ago from older guys. It all lays in your picking hand

Set up gain until you are feeling comfortable under your fingers, and then back up a bit.

I never go past 12 o'clock on preamp gain (which is like 50%). The post gain is a whole another thing tho (that is where the juice is

)

Vol pot is also what most players often overlook.

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 30 May 2011, 01:15

[quote name="Uros"]long time ago from older guys.[/quote]

Anjel · Post by **Anjel** » 30 May 2011, 01:15

[quote name="lavaGhoul"]Bass i meant to support guitar tone, to gives the sound the real strength. Thats one reason i don't like cannibal corpse.[/quote]

What...? Alex pretty much always plays the root notes of what the guitars are doing.

Uni777 · Post by **Uni777** » 30 May 2011, 01:19

I guess what he means is that Alex has a lot of piano like "Clang" in his sound. Also his playing is very busy. A lot of bassplayers halve the amounts of hits on the strings laying down more of a botton "groove" .

Anjel · Post by **Anjel** » 30 May 2011, 01:25

He obviously haven't heard The Bleeding.

Hallucinating dead · Post by **Hallucinating dead** » 30 May 2011, 01:47

at that point evisceration plague is good, i have the tshirt too

shubniggurath · Post by **shubniggurath** » 30 May 2011, 02:14

[quote name="uni777"]

A lot of guitar players have too much low end going on. We have the bassplayer for that. Also the idiotic amounts of gain some players use are kinda ridiculous. On your own you sound great. But you get lost in the mix and you mush up the band.

play with a subtle amount of gain, which is a bitch with some of the DM techniques, and you'll sound way heavier.[/quote]

Reminds me of all the times, when I first started playing, where I'd dial in a sound that I thought sounded awesome and massive when I was jamming by myself. But then you turn it up to rehearsal volume, and it starts sounding pretty different (this mystified me as a kid..."why does it sound so different, all I did was turn it up?"...until later on when I discovered the Fletcher-Munson contours, or whatever they call them these days). Then the drums and bass come in and it sounds totally different, again, doesn't cut through at all. Massive series of tradeoffs once you bring in other instruments and vocals, which all occupy different (but overlapping!) portions of the spectrum, and you've got the crazy interaction of the harmonic series for each...it's awesome and maddening at the same time.

vO)))id · Post by **vO)))id** » 30 May 2011, 02:25

That Darkthrone thing where the vocals seem to drown out the music, is probably because of the compression they used on the vocals. Some compressors tend to sidechain other frequencies. Sidechain compression is when a certain (range of) frequencies get "pushed" away by e.g. a kick drum, vocal, etc. This is very populair in hiphop and such.

LAVAGOD · Post by **LAVAGOD** » 30 May 2011, 02:34

alex just about right 95% of all music so everything pat and rob plays he plays.

and I meant to say, you can hear alex all over all the CC records but ive never heard the same effect on the guitar "Tone" that i supposedly had on To the Victor the spoils

bob_here · Post by **bob_here** » 30 May 2011, 02:43

[quote name="LAVAGOD"]alex just about right 95% of all music so everything pat and rob plays he plays.

and I meant to say, you can hear alex all over all the CC records but ive never heard the same effect on the guitar "Tone" that i supposedly had on To the Victor the spoils[/quote]

It's a good point to bring up and this all depends on the mix. We all know every mix differs and so does the techniques applied depending on the engineer.

Something like this could be a few variables. The first and probally most logical one is that the interplay of frequencies once again is at hand here. So we can think, ok, totally different mix, different band so that the guitars in one band perhaps carries more low end energy. Perhaps the tuning differences as well. What happens here is that the guitars also contribute to low energy information. As a mixing tactic, with a band like CC where the bass performance is technical and a bit more proliferated in different registries, an engineer would be smarter to juggle frequencies here to indeed share energies between guitars and create a sonic pocket for the bass in higher registries just as well.

^_____________^ · Post by **^_____________^** » 30 May 2011, 03:25

[quote name="Void"]That Darkthrone thing where the vocals seem to drown out the music, is probably because of the compression they used on the vocals. Some compressors tend to sidechain other frequencies. Sidechain compression is when a certain (range of) frequencies get "pushed" away by e.g. a kick drum, vocal, etc. This is very populair in hiphop and such.[/quote]

Alright, all of this stuff is confusing

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 30 May 2011, 04:26

If you are familiar with the most basic principles of compression, it's really is pretty simple stuff.

^_____________^ · Post by **^_____________^** » 30 May 2011, 04:50

I'm not.

I need to learn.

RitesOfPossession · Post by **RitesOfPossession** » 30 May 2011, 16:00

[quote name="^_____________^"]I'm not.

I need to learn.[/quote]

I'm in the same boat.

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 31 May 2011, 04:17

Compressors are, go figure, compressing. Or, they are reducing dynamic range (difference between the loudest and the softest part of the signal). They have a few parameters, which determine compressor's behaviour. Typically, they have attack, release, ratio, and threshold. I won't go into details as you can find numerous explanations on internet (for example http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/mixing- ... mixing.htm), so I will explain just threshold part and side-chaining to the best of my abilities and my English skills.

So, you have a certain signal coming through your compressor. If you set your threshold at for ex. 10 decibels, every time when signal reaches 10 decibels compressor will start working, and what it will give you at its output depends on your attack, release and ratio settings.

Now, some compressors have this side-chain option. Void has already mentioned what it did to that DT track (edit note: at this point, I still haven't heard this track). Technique behind that is: they strapped that side-chain compressor on vocal and guitar tracks. Now, why on those two? The answer is - because side-chain compressors work this way:

Their behaviour is determined by input level from one signal (sc compressor reads levels from one signal, in this case vocals), on which they react (so, every time vocals reach threshold setting compressor starts working) and process other signal - in this case guitars. To make this more clear, here is what this means in this particular case:

You have guitars and vocals. Mix engineer sets whatever attack&release times and ratio. He also sets threshold (probably really low) at that sc compressor so that every time vocals kick in they exceed that threshold level. That causes guitars to get ducked (get lower in volume) for certain value in decibels, because compressor reduces their dynamic range.

I guess that this was this engineer's take on getting vox to cut through the mix (vox and guitars are the most prominent in the same frequency range (2-5khZ)), so they overlap and mask each other A LOT, and that is one of the main challenges in nearly every mix - to carve space for each one of them, so each of them and the whole mix as well sound killer.

There are also multiband compressors (they divide the whole frequency spectrum (humans can hear in theory any frequency between 20hz and 20 000 hz) in a few freq. bands)) and their side-chain brothers, which work differently in some ways, but let's not get this any more confusing than it already is.

Clear enough?

=============================================================

EDIT: ok, now when I actually heard this, I must say that this is not side-chaining. It was done really sloppy by automating levels of vocals vs everything else in the mix, or by unskilled use of limiter on the master buss. I wonder if they have actually used a proper engineer at all

Whatever, at least you know something about side-chaining

RitesOfPossession · Post by **RitesOfPossession** » 31 May 2011, 22:10

Thatks for the comprehensive overview of compression. It turns I did know most of the basic stuff about compression but just didn't understand it in the context of the conversation.

Cheers.

vO)))id · Post by **vO)))id** » 31 May 2011, 22:21

Uros

we should team up together and produce world hit selling metal records

bob_here · Post by **bob_here** » 31 May 2011, 22:56

Do you hear how the rest of the mix swells up slowly after he is done singing?

What happened on this DT track is, as it seems, aside from the "finalizing" or "mastering" in this case is that the rest of the mix was homogenized and worked on

as a coherent stereo mix and the vocals were introduced and focused on as a featuring track. This explains why the vocals sort of sit out of the mix. Now the consequence

of the vocals not being blended correctly with the rest as a coherent, seemless mix is some sort of frequency ducking at the "mastering" stage through a broadband compressor

across the final mix. The vocals are beating up on the mix because the compressor is reacting to them. The compressor was also not set correctly. The release parameter sounds like

it's all the way up on values like 1000 ms (1s) or may be higher. It's not working for this rhythm.

Abzu · Post by **Abzu** » 31 May 2011, 23:50

I want to have sex with this thread.

Uros · Post by **Uros** » 01 Jun 2011, 06:51

Sure Vahmpy

On a side-note, when I wrote 'limiter' I meant exactly what TM is saying with this broadband compressor (these two are not the same thing, but in this case both do the same thing - ducking). Today there are much more examples of snare or kick ducking the mix because limiter is reacting to them, than what we hear in this DT song (vox). Actually, it's pretty unusual.